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Daytona Values

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by 328KNB, Mar 8, 2005.

  1. dbcooper

    dbcooper Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2005
    278
    Costa Mesa,Ca.
    Full Name:
    Tim Romero
    Dear Arts,
    Are you sure about that 727 thing?I coulda swore that it wuz a 707 but that crash thru the trees left me kinda dinged.and kinda forgetful.anyway...............
    what wuz I just saying? where am I?What do you meanby saying that? Nixon is dead?
     
  2. dbcooper

    dbcooper Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2005
    278
    Costa Mesa,Ca.
    Full Name:
    Tim Romero
    Billb,I will agree that this is a potential leak in a daytona and happens quit often,I dont see how you can say that its the usual leak.Lets see theres the front and rear crank seals that almost always leak because they're over 30 yrs old now.Then theres the O-rings on the distributor housing where it attaches to the head.Theres the big O-rings between the heads and Timing cover assy that gets damaged when Zippy at Iffy lube or similar attempts to reseal valve covers.Theres said valve or cam cover gaskets ,theres the seal for the tach drive on the distributor housing etc etc etc.Many,many potential leaks and I've seen many of all of these.
     
  3. 365boy

    365boy Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    Brighton, England
    Full Name:
    John Leaman
    Over here in England....

    Paul Baber ( www.250swb.com ) has just sold #16711 (an excellent RHD UK-spec Coupe in blue with tan). He was asking £95,000, which is at the very top end of the market. Does anyone know what it actually sold for..?

    A similar car sold - very quickly - a few months ago for around £85,000.

    John
     
  4. billb

    billb Formula Junior
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jun 4, 2001
    407
    Shorewood, IL
    Full Name:
    Bill Badurski
    db cooper,
    You're absolutely right! You obviously have seen a lot of these, as everything you mention is common. Guess what I meant to say was that the cracked case is the "usual leak" which brings about the final decision to pull the engine. Most of the owner's cars I service will put up with the leaks you mention, until we arrive at the cracked case issue. That's the one the puts them over the top. Thanks for the comment, right on the money.
     
  5. dry4re

    dry4re Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2005
    487
    AZ
    I sold a 330 GTS in Jan '04 and started looking for a "good" daytona. thought i would have no trouble finding a good one. Wrong! There were a handful of cars for sale - heritage in la, waterman in lauderdale, and the few that were in the FML...none particularly good and all were in the $140k range. At Concorso in August I talked to a bunch of guys only to find nothing really good and resigned myself that I would probably have to pay in the 175 range for a good car. Then, I was shown a one owner original car with 3,700 miles at $275k. I thought it was crazy, but in hindsight the price was probably right for what it is. Ultimately in sept '04 I found a true 5,000 mile car with a known history and paid in the 200 range. I believe that is the true market for really good cars now. You are hard pressed to find cars that don't have stories and/or good cars with known ownership history. Add in a weak dollar and it is forcing the market even higher on a currency arbitrage because the europeans, and asians for that matter, are paying 35% less than what they would have two years ago. Do I think I paid too much? Not when I consider what is out there and I have not put a dime into a wonderful driving and looking car.
     
  6. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,652
    DRY4RE,
    Can you post pictures of the Daytona?
    Thanks
     
  7. dry4re

    dry4re Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2005
    487
    AZ
    I'll post them as soon as I figure how to get them from my camera to the website. My car is Yellow/graphite blue...it sounds strange but when you see the pictures it isn't. It's a late '73, US Car. Have had it out on a couple of Club drives, and it runs great. steering is alot heavier than my 330 GTS, but in every other respect the Daytona is head and shoulders the better car. The 275k car I was referring to was the one in Conn. that someone in an earlier thread mentioned - it had 3,700 miles Nart Blue/tan, all original.
    dry
     
  8. billb

    billb Formula Junior
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jun 4, 2001
    407
    Shorewood, IL
    Full Name:
    Bill Badurski
    dry4re,
    Congrats on the car. I don't think you spent too much, and here's why. The last two I've done wound up in that range after receiving all the necessary work to bring them up to the condition of a car such as the one you found. When you factor in the downtime of several months, no driving enjoyment, to get all this accomplished (for which you can't put a value on), you seem to have made a wise purchase.
     
  9. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    It seems lots of folks base "value" and price range on auction results and asking price indexes from various sources. But most really top shape cars I do not think are sold via auction and probably are not listed in publications. So it gets very difficult to guage.

    Oh well. I am of course glad it appears prices are moving up, it makes all the money I have spent on mine easier to justify to the wife! But since I am not interested in selling its really a moot point.

    It would be interesting and fun to see more actual selling prices for cars going $190K and up. That car listed in FML that is supposedly now going for such money, does anyone know if it sold and if so for how much?

    If prices get to consistently over $200K for really nice cars, restoring to a high level the mechanically solid but cosmetically challenged $130K "driver" starts to make sense and I think we would see such cars getting the money put into them. That of course begs the question of what will happen to values if more cars are restored to true #1 condition!


    Terry
     
  10. dry4re

    dry4re Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2005
    487
    AZ
    Ed:
    do you know how to attach a file from my pictures?
     
  11. sjvalin

    sjvalin Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2004
    713
    Nevada County, CA
    Full Name:
    Steve Valin
    you'll have to make sure they are no bigger than 640x480 and 200KB in size. Then you click the Manage Attachements button below your posting window and go from there. Or you can email them to me (sjvalin@yahoo.com) and I'll resize and post them for you.

    -steve
     
  12. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    Just got the new issue of Sportscar Market today. They report a #2- "driver" condition '72 Daytona with stock wheels, nice paint but just decent detailing, engine bay and interior as sold for $157K.

    Funny thing is their price guide in the same issue lists $125K as a low and $145K as the high. Hmmmmmmm Do they even read their own auction reports

    Sheehans article in the same issue talks about Daytona prices relative to Hemi cuda prices. He notes that a year ago a '70 Hemi Cuda was a $200K car and now its a $400-500K car. The Daytona was a $125K car and now its $175K. He concludes (as do I) that muscle car prices now are an even bigger bubble than Ferrari prices were 1990. I completely agree!

    I am amazed that the buyers on those muscle cars apparently do not see it for the musical chairs game that it is. Last one stuck holding is going to be a BIG loser and overall prices will crash and then take decades to recover.

    Guys out there, LOTS of them, are paying more $$$ for a Hot Camaro or BOSS Mustang than cars like the Daytona or Muira bring. I just dont get that. Even with something like a COPO Camaro the only thing making it different from the other 500K Camaros built is the engine and options package. Its just so easy to build a cheap clone! With a car like a Daytona, there is no building a cheap clone. Its either the real deal or its not, you cannot build a replica that only a serial number check can tell is a replica. With most muscle cars, not only can you build such a replica but you can do it CHEAP with off the shelf parts and lots of people are doing just that!

    Sure sign of a stupid bubble in the muscle car market: even the clones are bringing Ferrari money! Guys are paying $125K for Hemi Cuda CLONES! That is just nuts



    Terry
     
  13. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    How much does an owner net at the sale???

    commission 10% buyers side
    commission 5-7 % on sellers side
    auction fee 500-1000 dollars
    transport to the sale
    detail, professional photoshoot(if you are smart) $$$$$$$$expenses

    Numbers sound good, but what do you net is more important. Difficult or nearly impossible to do this in your driveway. or showroom for that matter!
     
  14. dry4re

    dry4re Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2005
    487
    AZ
    do price guides reflect commissions? if the guide says 150k is that what the seller 'nets' or what the buyer actually pays? BJ total take I believe is 15%, so for example it's $127.5k to the seller, and the buyer paid 172.5k. Is my math right?
     
  15. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155

    Uhhhhhh Whats your point? $157K was too much? Too little? Meaningless?



    Terry
     
  16. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    157,000 x 85% (preferred customer rate) =133450 -1000 (I think, Auction Fee) = 132,450 - detail - transport ------

    And this particular car, Terry Larson sold at RM, he bought from Bruce Trennery last year for in the 100 teens (114,000 as I recall) and he did some work Shocks etc., nets the owner exactly what it was worth in today's market.

    My point is it's great to see the big numbers but how much does one bring home is the only important number. Auction house fees can be expensive

    Novices should neither buy or sell at the auctions. Tricky Game, kinda like VEGAS.
     
  17. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155

    Tricky? Really?

    How about you buy a clapped out 318 powered '70 Plymouth Cuda. Then you install an aftermarket new interior, a 426 hemi crate motor, all the nifty badging, a 4 speed, new paint and trim. Total investment perhaps $65K.

    Take it to Barrett Jackson and watch the suckers fight over it like the morons they are! Last years auction decent Hemi Cuda clones were bringing $125K.

    Doesnt sound so tricky to me ;) That is unless this round of musical chairs stops and your the last one left holding!

    I would never buy a Ferrari at auction unless it was either an obvious steal or I had the chance for a full inspection before hand and that just doesnt seem to happen.



    Terry
     
  18. JTranfield

    JTranfield Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    665
    NYC, London
    Full Name:
    J Tranfield
    Question here: All the time I see cars sold at auction going for 20-30% more in the magazines such as classic car a month later. Why are people sending their concours 100% cars to auction when they can get more by advertizing them in the magazines? Are they so rich that they just don't care? I am talking about high end Ferraris, Porches, Astons etc here that the dealers generally don't have to pit a penny into..............I understand getting rid of crap thropugh auctions and ebay but not decent stuff.
     
  19. geltman

    geltman Rookie

    Aug 8, 2004
    21
    Tspringer is as outraged as I am. How can these nothing, no big deal cars with the big engines we all used to own in high school & college, compare with Ferraris that originally sold for SIX times their original cost and still have all the aura, panache and salivating sex appeal. I challenge anyone to show a buyer a $500k muscle car next to a nice Daytona and see them quicky jump on the Daytona. Is a standard issue Mach 1 worth ($150,000)the same as a Daytona. Not hardly.
    There is a lot of stupid money out there. Just herd Instict.
    I recently read a critique of Barrett Jackson '05 where it mentioned a group of wealthy guys who used to go to Las Vegas for a fun annual outing on someones privated jet and drop a $million at the tables, now they go to Scottsdale and at least bring home a (trophy) car. Who cares if it made sense or not. They were just gambling anyway. Just a different venue.
    Will everyone that reads these comments (all 4 pages) send a note to Sports Car Market. They evidently have not read Shaunnessy's reports of 2 nice Daytonas selling privately for over $200k. Nice Daytonas are just not available for $145k anymore. The guys trying to buy the one advertised in Ferrari Market Letter for $145k soon found that the buyer had been deluged with offers and subsequently asked for sealed bids. We don't even know how nice it is. Muscle car buyers, WAKE UP OUT THERE. Will anyone let me borrow there Hemi Cuda for a few years, so I can SHORT it on the market?(Sell it now and buy it back at a lower price to pay back the lender).
     
  20. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    also sold two other good Daytona coupes for 125,000 each.

    Did not mention that.
     
  21. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    To the same guy? That must account for the stories of a Daytona going for $250K.

    Dale

    ps Thanks for helping Malcolm with his GTC.
     
  22. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155

    So the guys who paid $200K were suckers that got raked over the coals? Or, you had 2 sudden brain farts and sold a couple of cars for way under market?

    The first instance sounds more plausible.

    Some guy pays $200K for a 3,000 mile 100% original Daytona. I have a very hard time believing that such a car is not going to have dry rotted rubber seals, failing brake calipers and leaky valve seals for having sat stationary for most of its life. So unless the guy is just planning on displaying the car in a museam of trailering it to shows, he looks pretty fooling to me.

    But then again.... I am not the professional so what do I know?


    Terry
     
  23. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    Finally!!!!!! Wisdom is spoken on FCHAT, I can now, take some time off!!
     
  24. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    Nope, I am not the professional.

    I did own a vintage sportscar restoration business for 4 years. I have bought and sold over 200 vintage sportscars from Ferrari's to Triumph, Alfa, Lotus, Austin-Healey, MG, Porsche, Jaguar, Mercedes and others. I used to go on road trips where I would just get in my car and drive around looking for vintage barn finds. I never came home empty handed. I have sold cars to foreign buyers in at least 8 different nations and handled shipping the cars. I have done ground up restorations on over a dozen cars including TR6, XKE, 911S and Healey 3000.

    But like I said, what the heck do I know. Apparently the professional knows that a Daytona in very nice shape is worth between $125K and $200K with the difference in the two prices having far more to do with how much you can talk the buyer into forking over than anything to do with the actual cars.

    At least that is my impression. But.... as always.... what the heck to I know?



    Terry
     
  25. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    Oct 31, 2003
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    Scott
    Curious...what was a nice Daytona changing hands for at the height of the Ferrari mania 15 years ago?
     

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