classic Ferrari v classic artwork

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by richardson michael, Feb 7, 2015.

  1. richardson michael

    Aug 17, 2013
    brittany. france
    Full Name:
    michael richardson
    Following the sale in Paris yesterday of the 250 California barnfind, (10 mill) and the Paul Gaugin painting in New Yory(300mill)...I wonder if there is a comparison of values here. There is only one painting on offer. If there was only one 250 GTO,instead of around 35,would it be worth thirty times more,so around 300 mill. Is that an example of supply and demand?
  2. mdw3

    mdw3 Karting

    Jan 2, 2005
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    No. Broader market appeal with the extremely wealthy class. Simply put, there are more super-rich guys who would buy a trophy painting at the highest levels than cars. The market for collectible cars just isn't as broad as that for art, particularly as the prices reach these levels.

  3. kare

    kare F1 Rookie

    Nov 11, 2003
    Unique cars are more common that those built in small series.
  4. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
    Full Name:
    Art Corvelay
    Cars will never compete with art at the very highest levels and this is a great example why.

    The appeal of art to people with incredible wealth is greater than classic cars, that is a driving force. Secondly there are some 30-odd California's etc. There is only one 'Nafea Faa Ipoipo' by Gauguin just one 'Card players' by Cezanne, just one 'Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer' by Klimt and so on.

    If there were just a single GTO that had the incredible racing history and no stories along with the other qualities that drive the price into the stratosphere, perhaps we would see an incredible price paid for it, but that isn't the case.

    In the longer term it will be fascinating to see which (art or cars), if either, continue to hold their values as the generations of family wealth change and new money enters the market and which, if either, hold the same appeal and fascination to a new generation of collectors that are another degree removed from certain periods in art or racing.

    Will a 40 year old billionaire in twenty years time be as interested in something painted in 1892 or a car that has crashed and been rebuilt numerous times, burns fossil fuel and raced in glory days that the billionaire has to Google rather than remember first hand? And what happens to the values of those cars if that generation have little interest? Will a contemporary car be the market GTO in twenty years time and GTO values fall drastically along with others? Will a Gauguin be as valuable as it is today in that future market place? Will a Jeff Koons or Chuck Close painting be a $300m collector must have in twenty years?

    Interesting times and I hope people buy what they actually like, appreciate and want to live with.
  5. richardson michael

    Aug 17, 2013
    brittany. france
    Full Name:
    michael richardson
    Art/Ginge. I asked a question,and your very interesting reply asks four more. In short,we don't know,and as you say,only time will tell.....can't wait to find out,but as time and tide waiteth for no man,then one should spend it now and enjoy it,rather than wait a little longer only to fall of the perch. !!
  6. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    Agree with pretty much everything you say. Plus you offer great food for thought. Indeed lets see what the future holds. I think Art has another big advantage (or two) that classic cars just don't have. First big buyers of Art are women today (a fact often ignored). This is still not the case with classic cars. Secondly Art is cross cultural. You have all continents bidding for top pieces. Not the case with classic cars. Many rich Middle Easterners and Asians are not buying classic cars as they did not grow up with them (except perhaps India).

    Art in my opinion will hold up better than cars. And I am a car guy and not an art collector.
  7. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
    Good points. What happens when all cars are self driving and no one knows how to actually drive a car anymore?
  8. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 24, 2009
    Norfolk VA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ

    Jan 11, 2008
    Full Name:
    Art collecting has a respectability established over centuries.
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Art has but one purpose and that is to be aesthetically pleasing, it doesnt move nor make any sound nor does it it particularly do anything, its only purpose is to look a particular way. For the common man/ woman it makes art appreciation very easy to explain. Your average collector car is extremely difficult to explain, after all you take a 250 GTE and a 250 GTO and your novice says why is one worth 60 times the value of the other when they are 80% the same, and you have to explain some technological difference that makes one so much more valuable, without putting anyone to sleep...... An artwork is something you either find pleasing or dont.

    On another tangent a car has ongoing continuous costs that artwork doesn't have, a painting can be put on the wall, a car needs to be serviced, restored and stored which for some people could be a turnoff
  11. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
    Full Name:
    Art Corvelay
    Art also can have restoration costs, storage costs and in certain cases maintenance costs. Insuring art is also an ongoing cost.

    With art there is also the oddity of one Picasso painting worth a few million to the market and another worth £80m. Same materials, same artist, often same scale and occasionally same subject and yet the execution poles apart and as a result the value.
  12. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2013
    Paris, France
    Full Name:
    Alex Wagner
    I would beware the (inevitable?) temptation to rationalize what is.

    Top art commands much higher prices than top cars. This can be rationalized for all sorts of reasons, such as art being unique pieces, easier to apreciate, and so forth.

    And conversely, if one day top cars command much more than top art, it will be easy to rationalize why: they can be enjoyed with all of the senses, taken out on special occasions, and so forth...
  13. mabellan

    mabellan Rookie

    Jan 6, 2008
    Full Name:
    Michel Abellan
    1) Art market is still more mature than cars. (Gap could reduce with time)
    2) Quantity of Art-pieces produced might be larger than cars (take all paintings and all sculptures produced by important artists including contemporaneous versus all cars produced with appropriate criteria (models with less than 1000 even 100 pieces hand made production, few famous makes like Ferrari, Porsche,Aston Martin, Bugatti etc..., continuous history, palmares, original condition etc...).
    3) Production of Art pieces still increasing, production of classic cars almost finished (can we consider new models even produced in limited edition as (Future) classic cars or as a marketing product of Luxus industry creating scarcity ?
    4) loving and "understanding" contempory art piece might need more education than admiring a red 250 GTO.
    5) Mc Luhan said something like " a technic becomes Art when a new technic emerges". With the possible change of paradigm by replacement of petrol-based, privately owned, and human driven cars by electric, self-driven, possibly rented cars, classic cars 1900-1980 will definitively belong to history.
  14. Hugh Conway

    Hugh Conway Karting

    Jul 24, 2012
    It's not a raw numbers game. For more modern artworks there may have been a number greater than one produced for valuable art. The Giacometti sculpture sold for $140million+ fees was one of 7 (6 + proof). The earlier record for a sculpture - Giacometti's Walking Man - one of 10 (6 + 4 proofs). Several years ago the only non-institutional copy (of 4 total) of the Scream sold for $120 million. The institutional mention is relevant - there may only be one or two copies that will come for sale in a reasonable time frame. This isn't market maturity as much a major difference in mass appreciation and opportunity to display works, as well as portability. The art market and art appreciation market is much larger and no matter how many times people make a claim here - classic cars aren't really art. The biggest person to perhaps push them as art is Ralph Lauren.
  15. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

    Jun 29, 2006
    Santa Monica
    Full Name:
    Cheddar, The
    A morsel for thought: In 25 years time, we'll almost certainly be surrounded by cities of self-driving cars, networked to prevent collisions. When that time comes, how likely will people even be allowed to drive their own cars? In 30 years, there will likely be very few gas stations, if any, necessitating specialized delivery of fuel. How will the inability to use a car when and where we like affect the market for old cars? To me, these two limiting factors of basic usability, whenever they arrive, will demolish values for all but the premier "pieces" in automobiles.

    That said, in 50 years, I'd bet everyone will still have walls.
  16. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    Full Name:
    If there was one 250 GTO remaining, in the world... I suspect it could become a $300mm+ car, no problem at all. It multiplying in value by 10x from being the single, most coveted Ferrari... no question in my mind.

    Of course, that is quite a hypothetical and baked into the value of every GTO is the possibility that one of the others will somehow be lost / destroyed... but nothing will contemplate that level of uniqueness.
  17. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    Full Name:
    In my view, that scenario would increase the value of cars. They will have moved on to become more historical artifacts and in fact closer to being "art". Art, by definition, is something that holds only aesthetic / poetic and not functional value. Classic cars are, in a sense rolling art (at least in their values... they are no longer purchased for their performance) but anything that more concretely sets them into art in its purest form, I think will actually improve their long-term value.

    That said, I think driverless cars are far, far, far further away than most people today think...
  18. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    #18 merstheman, Jun 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  19. Mrpbody44

    Mrpbody44 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 5, 2007
    St Augustine Florida
    Full Name:
    Steve Metz
    High end art is a financial instrument and has been for a long time. Classic F cars have only been so for the last 25 years and they have been up and down. When trouble comes it is easy to roll up a painting. Getting an F car out of Russia,Nigeria,Quatar or China is a lot harder

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