Can video games teach you to race? | FerrariChat

Can video games teach you to race?

Discussion in 'Technology' started by Dr JonboyG, Apr 28, 2011.

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  1. Dr JonboyG

    Dr JonboyG Karting

    Jul 26, 2004
    227
    Washington, DC
    Full Name:
    Jonathan Gitlin
  2. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Apr 3, 2001
    11,237
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Pinned to read later! Good to know there' an ars guy on fchat!
     
  3. 4REphotographer

    4REphotographer F1 Veteran

    Oct 22, 2006
    6,197
    Arlington, VA
    Full Name:
    Chris
  4. SPEEDCORE

    SPEEDCORE Four Time F1 World Champ

    Jul 11, 2005
    45,906
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    Toe Knee
    Cool stuff :)
     
  5. kali

    kali Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2007
    271
    Full Name:
    Elle
    I tried to play driving games prior to actually learning how to drive. It was not useful in teaching me. I was just as bad before and after.
     
  6. Adelicia

    Adelicia Rookie
    BANNED

    Jul 12, 2011
    3
    No i think....not possible.
     
  7. omgjeff

    omgjeff Karting

    Mar 20, 2010
    65
    Austin, TX
  8. Chris-CXC Simulations

    Chris-CXC Simulations Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2009
    558
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Chris Considine
    I would have to agree :)
     
  9. TexasKid

    TexasKid Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Apr 13, 2011
    449
    Teach you to race? No. Teach you a little about a track you've never been on? Sure. Valentino Rossi started training for his first attempt at Laguna Seca by playing it on video games before the US GP in 2005. It doesn't give you all the details you'd need (bumps, etc), but it can help you find good lines.
     
  10. Chris-CXC Simulations

    Chris-CXC Simulations Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2009
    558
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Chris Considine
    Well, I suppose I should have clarified: "Racing simulations can teach you to race".


    Now, simulation will never never completely replace actual track time, but it can be a HUGE advantage as a substitution for many of your track sessions. This is only really true if you are using the right equipment and you approach it correctly.

    Here are just a few things you can do with quality training simulators:

    * Track Familiarization - With many simulations now offering laser-scanned tracks, accuracy is measured in millimeters. That goes for every bump, curb and even track-side objects (for great visual reference). This really allows you to plan every detail of a lap including racing line, alternative lines, passing opportunities, etc. Every track hasa very unique character. This goes so far beyond which turn goes where.

    * Race Craft - When do you lay-up, push hard, conserve tires, conserve fuel? When to pass, how to pass? These are all things easily practiced in a good simulator. With some of the online racing software just now maturing, you are guaranteed to find a good, close racing field to race with at any given hour. The software will even auto match you with drivers of a similar talent level to ensure you always have someone to race with. You will learn SO much in your first online race, it will astonish you.

    * Physical Training - I challenge you to drive more than 5 minutes in our simulator without working up a serious sweat! Real tactile feedback simulators are extremely physical. They work muscles you just cannot work in the gym.

    * Setup Theory - This, the black art of racing that gain or loose you huge amounts of time on the tacks. There are so many ways to go that most people opt for a safe baseline setup and modify as track time allows in real life. In the simulator, you can not only try any setup conceivable, but you can learn how each adjustment affects lap time, tire and fuel conservation,and drafting. Tactile feedback simulators allow you to take this a step further and actually FEEL the difference between various minute suspension changes.

    * Weather Strategies - Some software allow you to adjust weather as well. This extends far beyond a simple wet race to wind conditions, ambient and track temperatures, shadows causing track temp changes,drying lines, etc. This allows you to work on maximizing your weather skills to gain yet another skill.


    The point is, you never stop learning. Whether it's at the track or on your simulator. The advantage with a simulator you can learn all of these things with no recurring costs. Oh, and by the way, all this, from the comfort of your home and with limitless track time.

    Don't take my word for it though, look at the hundreds of teams and drivers now heavily relying on simulators as an essential part of their racing programs.
     
  11. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Jul 26, 2004
    15,774
    Full Name:
    IgnoranteWest
    I took one look at that contour and thought "chump car"

    I just did a chump car 18 hr at Texas World last weekend. :)
     
  12. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 4, 2008
    33,571
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Rich
    Yes, different IMHO. I cut my teeth on the classic video games of the 80's, and I had an SCCA license. No way could a plain old video game help you other than hand/eye coordination - no doubt important, but a different ball game than when on track.
     
  13. simonepeters

    simonepeters Rookie

    Aug 4, 2011
    4
    i must be one of the very few people in this world who can drive a real car better than on video games LOL
    but i do hear of simulation helping people to master the skills better in real life though
     
  14. kali

    kali Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2007
    271
    Full Name:
    Elle
    However, I hear the ferrari driving game actually has very similar dynamics to driving the real models, given the correct wheel and etc.
     
  15. Chris-CXC Simulations

    Chris-CXC Simulations Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2009
    558
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Chris Considine
    Yes, simulators are completely different. They focus on replicating not only the driving dynamics of a car and track, but the proper tactile feedback the driver needs in order to make an informed control input decision.


    Ferrari Virtual Academy is actually quite good. Shame it's only one car and three tracks though. iRacing is equal if not better and has lot's more content to choose from.
     
  16. Trance

    Trance Formula Junior

    Aug 11, 2009
    352
    Nashville/Knoxville
    Full Name:
    Pouya V
    I definitely think so.
    Just look at GT Academy, the winner of GT Academy went to compete for the Nissan Le Mans team and they got 2nd place in the 24 hour Le Mans... pretty amazing if you ask me.
     
  17. Eric W

    Eric W Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2004
    910
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Video games teach kids to race like idiots!
     
  18. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,367
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    I can give you some personal experience. I did a lemons race in a porsche 944 at CMP a year and a half ago, I have been sim racing since the late '90's starting with grand prix legends and on through to iracing currently (though not as much now, I was heavy into it previously). My teammates for the lemons race included a couple of motorcycle guys that had done a lot of track days and 2 other guys that had done track days in their personal cars, and one guy who hadn't done any racing at all. I had done 2 track days in my personal car about 5 years prior to the race, both of which were marred by mechanical break downs, and a few solo2 events. So I had about the 4th most amount of real track experience out of the 6 guys on our team.

    I was 3 seconds a lap faster than the next fastest guy (one of the motorcycle guys), and about 10 seconds a lap faster than the novice driver (and this on a short 1.1 mile track). I had a 5 lap stretch in the 2.5 hours I drove where I didn't have much traffic to deal with - which is hard to find in a lemons race - where I set my fastest lap, and the other 4 laps in that stretch were within .3 of my fastest so I could lap quickly consistently. I also had no problem dealing with the massive amount of traffic as I had dealt with it before in sims and didn't have a nice wink mirror like we did in the car. So, that's what sim racing was worth for me vs. someone who had more real world experience but no sim experience. Keep in mind it wasn't due to knowing the track, either, as CMP isn't in any sim that I'm aware of and we all had over 2 hours of track time each by the end of the race. It was down to the fact that I know how to heel/toe downshift properly, know how to find the correct line, know how to mark my brake points, can trailbrake into turns and use all of the track. It was much easier for me to drive a real car quickly than in a sim as I could feel so much more of what the car was doing. If you can drive quickly in a sim, the transition to a real car is easier than the opposite because instead of losing a lot of the sensation you need to feel the car, you are gaining it.

    I use a force feedback wheel (logitech G25) with stick shift and a projector. The g25 has a stick shift and can be configured in most decent sims to work like a real car in that heel/toe shifting is required to keep the car settled under braking etc, so I can practice driving on it like in a real car so I don't have to adjust driving in real life when getting in the car.

    That being said, real car time would be better than a sim hands down, but there's no way I could ever afford to turn the thousands of laps in real life that I can in a sim, experiment with setups, etc. Keep in mind that I had years of experience in sim racing and I remember vividly that it took me probably 2 years worth of playing almost every day to actually get good at it back in the late 90's. Yes, years. But, that was in Grand Prix Legends which may be one of the hardest 'games' ever made. At this point, if I spend a few hours practicing and tweaking a setup, I can get within 1-2 seconds of a world record lap in iRacing. No idea how I'd stack up against a pro racer in real life and I don't have a good enough internet connection to do much online racing so it's not as much fun as it used to be (and I don't have as much time). All I can say is that at my level, I'm much quicker than my fellow non-pros that have more track experience than I do.

    I've since done more track days and have a chump race at VIR in august where I can really use the sim to learn the track, so it may be more telling there what a sim can do for that aspect of it there.
     
  19. bounty

    bounty F1 Veteran

    Feb 18, 2006
    7,769
    San Diego, CA
    Race? No.

    But, I think it gave me a serious advantage to learning how to drive a stick. Seemed easy after having played race games with a shifter in my youth.
     
  20. MisterMaranello

    MisterMaranello F1 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2011
    3,237
    Europe
    I don't think they can make anyone a champion racer in the same sense that athletic sprinting has been dominated by those of caribbean nationalities, some are equipped to be racing drivers better than others. Lucas Ordonez is living proof that certain games can train you into increased professionalism (he's in LMP2 now isn't he?), but in the end, he was a gokarter to begin with. Anyone familiar with the GT Academy will know that all the winners didn't come from nothing when they won the competition, all of them had either karting og motorsports experience in some shape or form. The Red Bull and McLaren simulators are run with a version of rFactor Pro software (a simulator anyone can purchase, albeight not the "pro" version), and they are renowned for having some of the best simulators in the business. On a sidenote, I think Ferrari uses their own software (there are some articles online featuring their Shell-Ferrari simulator built by a local firm).
     
  21. masterianvii

    masterianvii Rookie

    Apr 6, 2012
    45
    Full Name:
    Bedo
    #21 masterianvii, Apr 9, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
    I have some experience building racing simulators. I started my career in software doing just that because I loved cars so much, and I couldn't afford to go real racing. I have been playing racing games and simulators since the mid 90's. I have played them ALL!

    Here are my thoughts on this question.


    Yes, you can, but depends on what it is that you want to learn.

    I don't think until couple of years ago simulation software was good enough to replicate the characteristics of tires, which is the heart of any racing simulation.

    There are two approaches to this. The empirical model, and the predictive model. To date, almost all of the racing simulations have been based on empirical models. Meaning, that they've acquired some data from a manufacturer, and fit mathematical curves, and the software "matches" up to the real world. There are advantages and disadvantages to this approach. This works well if you have really good data. Unfortunately most commercially available software will not have good data because manufacturers and race teams keep their data private. Software like rFactor Pro allows race teams to plug-in their private data.

    iRacing is the first simulation to bring a mathematical model of the tire to the market. While they initially started with an empirical model in 2008, at this very moment they are rolling out this "new tire model" as it's called. While not yet perfect, the advantage there is that the model can simulate things for which data is unobtainable. For example, how a tire reacts when pushed past its limits.

    Given the number of articles published, and the people behind iRacing, and the sort of funding they have, and the amount of time they have already spent, I find it very difficult to believe that anyone else in this business can pull this off.

    Any other simulations are most likely based on the empirical model.

    With that said, technology is getting better and better, and so are the people behind these projects.

    As the software advances, more things can be simulated more accurately, and as a result, you can learn more.

    Will you learn everything about racing? No. Understanding car behavior and driving is only part of racing. Perhaps even a small part of it. There are no simulators for teaching you how to acquire sponsorship, or how to rebuild transmissions (yet).

    Here is what I think you can learn:
    - The tracks. With the advent of laser scanning techniques, track modeling is becoming more and more accurate. iRacing was the first simulator to do this successfully. Now other games and simulators are following suit. I did a track day at Road Atlanta, and I practiced in iRacing to learn the track. I can tell you that it was spot on!! Even the telephone poll that you aim for coming out of T1 is where it should be!!!

    - Racing strategy. When you race against other people, you don't need accurate physics to learn strategy. Coping with pressure, having patience, and mentally intimidating your opponents is all part of the game. When you play online in games and simulators, the mental factor is all there, just as in real life.

    - Car dynamics. With the recent developments in tire model development and hardware, you can learn about the THEORY. Oversteer, understeer, braking, etc... You can actually buy hydraulic based brake pedals for your racing games these days!
    Since simulations don't yet model everything, you can't rely 100% on the game. However, you can learn most things, and refine with real experience.

    - Setup theory. Also depends on the quality of software. For example, in iRacing you don't adjust ride heights, you adjust the spring perch. Suspension tuning is done by adjusting the clicks and setting degrees, just as the real components. You can actually follow the manufacturer's instruction manuals for adjusting your car. While the effects may not be the same, you can get the general idea.

    Simulations should be treated as a learning resource. Much like reading a book and watching videos. Except, they're more interactive.

    However, as with all literature and media, if the quality of the simulator is not good, it can be misleading, and that could translate to being dangerous.

    Racing games are designed to be fun. They're also designed to be played by people who are not professionals, and give them the illusion that they are. They are also designed to be played with game pads. This requires fudging physics and making cars pull off the impossible in attempt to keep the player entertained! This is what separates simulators from games. Simulators are designed to recreate real life, while games are designed for entertainment.

    Understanding the intent of the software, and the limitations of current technology is key to getting the most out of it. It's just another training tool.
    When used correctly, you can benefit from it.


    While I agree with most things Chris of CXC simulators has mentioned, physical training is still something that's not quite up to par. Motion simulators are great, but they can't yet simulate a full G. Even in a road car with road tires, drivers experience more than a G. Unless there is a device that can manipulate gravity, or has the mechanical capability to safely toss you around, replicating multiple G's, you will not work your muscles hard enough. Yes, you will work up a sweat, but it's not the same thing. I work up a sweat doing an hour of iRacing without a motion simulator. :) That's not to say that the CXC isn't the most amazing simulator on today's market, and that I didn't wish I owned one! ;)
     

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