Remy, Read this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174392. I think Massa has reached his impressive best, and I will admit that he is miles better than I ever thought he was going to be. Pete
I mean that people are tossing out all sort of random or even "creative" data points, and then returning to statements about what's been "proven" about the future. This is racing. Anything can happen. If you can absolutely predict that Massa will never win a WDC, why ain't you rich in the stock market? All I'm trying to do (futilely, apparently) is show people that their opinions are based on emotional impressions -- often old ones, rather than on what's been happening on the track. There's not enough data to tell what's going to happen next year. You can have a "feeling" about it -- but that's all it is: a "feeling". But people keep asserting that their "feelings" come from evolution, or DNA, or something that happened to a driver as a child that "proves" he'll never be a WDC. It's like a religion. (F1 is the opiate of the masses?) I don't like Alonso as a driver. But I'm not going to try to use that to "prove" he'll never be WDC again. Put him in a good car, and if he doesn't stab himself in the back .... Besides: people could use "unmotivated and out of touch" to describe Coulthard when Kimi beat him at McLaren. You can toss out all the data points you want: none of them will "prove" that driver X will "never" be any good. Like him or loathe him, Massa did a fine job at Ferrari in 2007. You can write that off to the car, or the alignment of the planets, or whatever, if it makes you "feel" better. But it doesn't change laps already run.
Actually no you couldn't, because Coulthard actually beat Kimi in points in their first year together. People don't like to bring that up though. I agree with your whole post however, but what do you expect a bunch of emotional F1 fans to discuss in the off season? This is like any other sport: football, baseball etc. People have their favorites, and they also have the ones they pick on whether it's rational or not, albeit mostly not.
The big difference is that Senna, Schumacher and Woods were all immediately competitive right from the outset. Massa was a disaster his first year to the point of being fired by Sauber. Sure, he can improve but he is clearly an inferior driver and lacking in the natural talent that the top drivers possess. No matter how much he drives and how much he improves, he will never be in the class of the top drivers. Lots of drivers could do what Massa has done in the Ferrari (Irvine and Rubens already have). Some of you seem to have trouble distinguishing between Massa's talents and the excellence of his machinery. Outside of the Ferrari, Massa goes back to fighting for 10th place...behind his teammate.
actually, he was fired by Sauber not because he's not talented or anything. it was his silly move on Trulli ( iirc ) at Monza. Trulli passed him, straightlining the 1st corner, the chicane, and all Massa had to do was to wait for Trulli to give him back his place. but Massa did the unthinkable and speared Trulli off the track. so Sauber sacked him to avoid gettin penalised 10 places for the next race. however, i did remember he was offered a place at Sauber, can't recall what year that was.
Peter Sauber said in an interview that he was frustrated with Massa's lack of progress and fired him. He thought Massa would be another Kimi but found this not to be the case. He re-hired Massa in 2004 because he came as part of the Ferrari engine package, IIRC.
No offense but even a computer program can 'support'/spot the current favorite. senna3wc >The big difference is that Senna, Schumacher and Woods were all immediately competitive right from the outset. This comment can be used for and against Massa. Do you have any evidence supporting 'the against pov'? rodolfo >47 pages from the Brazilian GP spoiler thread!!! And hardly a sign of progress from senna3wc
Huh?!? What are you smoking?!? An athlete sucks as a rookie, therefore he must be a future world champion. Is that what you are seriously trying to suggest?!? Maybe Ide will return to F1 and break all of Schumacher's records, eh?
Look, Massa's goes to 10. Kimi's, Alonso's and Hamilton's goes to 11 Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Nuvolari, etc... they break the knob off.
If he was so bad as you are implying, how does your algo account for his improvement/current perf and what makes you think he won't make a drastic jump in perf again.
Massa's current apparent improvement has come from the fact that he is sitting now in the very fast and much easier to drive Ferrari. Because the car itself is many seconds a lap faster than the Sauber, Massa can slow down his efforts and thus concentrate on smoothness, etc. Everybody that has raced a car nows this is how it works. You work hard on the off season and make improvements to your club car. Suddenly you find even bigger improvements to your lap times and importantly your average lap time and race performance. This is because the car is working so much better and the requirements from the driver are LESS. Thus your passing ability improves because you are able to think more about strategy/race craft instead of 100% concentrating on fighting the car to keep it on the road, your tyre wear reduces, everything. Massa has made a small improvement, yes, but his biggest improvement is simply getting into a far (and the difference is massive) better balanced and faster race car. I also find it absolutely amazing that Massa has such passionate supporters ... RB and Irvine never got to this level. This I cannot understand because of all Ferrari recent number 2 drivers, RB was the one that in his early years looked like the real deal ... not Massa. Pete
Once Massa leaves Ferrari we will see whether he really improved or whether it was down to the car. This surprised me too. My explanation is the master-disciple theory: He was the last one "trained" by the mighty MS and so he gives the fans who really miss Schumacher somebody to cheer on (e.g. Schumassa). Vice versa Kimi is the bad guy, because he forced MS out of Ferrari and F1. I realize that is not true for everybody, but IMHO does explain some of the support Massa gets.
I wouldn't agree with that at all. Most people just tend to attach to one driver. Massa is a likable driver, who has vastly improved. I don't think anyone thinks Kimi is the bad guy that forced MS out, and i don't remember anyone ever implying this. I happen to like Kimi, but if it were a battle between him and Massa, i would chose the later. Im not going to jump on the bandwagon and start liking every driver that is the BEST. I respect Hamilton for the driver he is but i don't like him much. Just because Kimi won this year doesn't mean im going to start cheering for him and forget Massa. Im perfectly content cheering for my guy, even if he did get 4th in the standings. Winning just isn't that important to me in F1, its enjoying the sport. I'll admit, seeing anti massa remarks in almost every thread takes a little of the fun out of it.
Agreed on that. I was bored stiff in 2004. There is much more to F1 than Ferrari victories. Funny you say that. I felt the same way with anti Kimi remarks. I guess it all depends on the perspective.
Oh yeah I see, lol. Also, Michael may have only been .7 quicker than Badoer, but let's remember than Badoer and Coulthard are the only other drivers on the grid who have driven without TC. Hell, Badoer may even be quicker than Kimi and Massa, INITIALLY, due to his TC less experience.
