Boxer engine/gearbox build | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Boxer engine/gearbox build

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Newman, Nov 22, 2009.

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  1. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #201 Newman, Feb 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Took the gearbox into work today and started to take it apart. With the carrier out and the side cover off, the shifter mechanism has to be taken out next. The front cover was removed which contains the gearbox oil pump and speed sensor, you can see the 4 blade trigger wheel. Also you can see the oil pump pickup hole which has a sock on the other side of the gearbox wall and the shifter shaft o-ring that Bruce had so much fun changing on his car in-chassis! Shifter shafts taken out one at a time from the bottom up, I slid the levers back on the shafts after removal to keep head the scratching to a minmum when I put it back together. On the side support wall the 3 holes contain the detent balls and springs that ride on the shifter shafts to hold the box in the chosen gear. More importantly there are 3 dowls that run through the 3 shafts shuffling up and down as the gears are selected, they allow only one shaft to move from neutral at a time blocking the possibility of selecting 2 gears at the same time - very important. Once the small oil splash shield is out you can see all the gears, they all look great. I can see machining marks on the teeth as well so its not a high mile car. The dog teeth look good as well, ill check the syncro clearances tomorrow then slide the pinion gear out first.
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  2. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    #202 2dinos, Feb 23, 2010
    Heyyyy! Changing that shift shaft seal now is cheating. You're supposed to do that AFTER you get the engine back in the car:)

    That thing really does look nice. I got a great view of my gears and engagement crowns with the sidecover off thru mirrors. They look perfect too. And after about 3 days I no longer felt the need to squint when I looked in a mirror. Again, that really is a nice way to get in and do a thorough clean job.
     
  3. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #203 Newman, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sorry im lazy just ask Rifledriver Im not self-employed so I decided out of pure laziness to change it now, but thats only because once the front cover was off it fell out onto the bench. :)

    Ive been working on getting the studs out when I have spare time and finally today I took the gearbox over to the press and gently pressed the pinion shaft out of the bearing. I took pics of that with my phone so ill download them and post them later.

    Tomorrow I pick up my head from the machine shop that flowed it to give me intake and exhaust readings. Without knowing the numbers until tomorrow they did tell me that the heads untouched as delivered fresh off the engine ran out of flow at .400" lift - interesting. With the weenie .300" lift thats not an issue though and the 365 was only .350" lift.

    Tomorrow ill slide the pinion shaft out and inspect the gears. The Boxer/TR specific ringnut tool I ordered is waiting at the post office which Im assuming is for the mainshaft, its a smaller ringnut than the pinion shaft. Ill post pics of that tool tomorrow.
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  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #204 mk e, Feb 26, 2010
    Paul,
    .300? That's it? The 400i uses .305 on the exhaust and .348 on the intake and it works fine with CIS (328 and TR use these same grinds too). This has me thinking you could add some lift without adding much if any duration and pick up som hp.
     
  5. Rossa a nord di

    Rossa a nord di Karting

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    #205 Rossa a nord di, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
    "I took the gearbox over to the press and gently pressed the pinion shaft out of the bearing".

    What do you mean "Gently pressed it out". I told you to use a sledge hammer.
    Brent.
     
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #206 Newman, Feb 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Today I picked up the head I dropped off for flow testing. They couldnt do the intake/throttle body without fabricating a special adapter blah blah blah so only the head was checked. The flow numbers are below as the heads were in used form. With a modern valve job and great valves the number will increase, ill do some minor bowl work and verify port match then re-flow the head.

    Nice 360 Ti rod from MkE for mockup and fondling then I have to return it :(. Im wanting a set of 12 for the added cool factor and the improved rpm response, we'll see if I can get some at a reasonable price.

    At the shop there was a set of BB512 heads there that a friend sent up for rebuilding. I v-blocked the cams while I was there and came up with .300" lift on one cam and .350" on the other. If I recall correctly it was the exhaust that had the higher lift but for some reason I had a brain fart and couldnt remember on my drive home! But the lift was different from intake to exhaust which is a blend of the 365BB cam that has .350" on both and the BBi with .300" on both cams.
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  7. Ferraripilot

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    #207 Ferraripilot, Feb 27, 2010
    It's my understanding that 2v 308 heads run out of flow at about the same point. I have seen flow numbers after a good valve job with undercut intake valves yield about 8-10% better flow. I believe I have the flow sheet on my work computer.......
     
  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #208 Newman, Feb 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. Ferraripilot

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    #209 Ferraripilot, Mar 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes, I would say there is a difference there. All in, that is a rotational mass decrease of 6.349 POUNDS. Wow. I am sure even more will be subtracted when pistons are replaced and the rest of the engine is balanced for the specific components. You might just be in the 10lbs range by the time you are done. Most impressive.

    The BB LM engine makes a quoted 480bhp, which I hear is tough to do but is doable. I know of a BB LM engine beefed up which made 530bhp after many of the innerds were changed along with a little bit of headwork. Substantial bump there

    Here is the flow chart I dug up. The 'after' results are after a quality valve job, but I believe the intake valve is 1mm larger in diameter hence the lower flow rate at small openings. 2v 308 engine
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  10. Newman

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    #210 Newman, Mar 1, 2010
    Thanks for the data John.

    This engine build requires a different approach and mindset than im used to. Original looking on the outside is the limiting factor. I must retain the CIS so my limitations are just around the 400+HP mark when mods like cams are very critical but very limiting as well. Porting beyond pocket only is a waste because of, number 1, the throttle plate that is cast into the intake plenum so it cant be changed without cutting and welding. Then we have the CIS ahead of that. The engine software simulation shows the throttle body becomes the bottle neck after .400" lift and no port work makes any (or much) difference unless the induction is changed too - not gonna happen. So if I can pick up additional power through weight reducion and friction reduction as well as careful cam selection, compression and header reworking then ill exceed 400HP no problem with gobs of torque. If this car was carbed then making 500HP would be a much smaller hurdle to overcome but then ill need to stock up on gearbox main shafts and other bits and pieces that wont like the extra grunt.
     
  11. Ferraripilot

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    #211 Ferraripilot, Mar 1, 2010
    I hear getting 500+ bhp with carbs or Lucas injection as the LM had is difficult. The LM setup is basically P6 cams, 11:1+ compression, Lucas ITB injection. Most end up with 470-480 without substantial reworking. However, I did see a sheet from a really impressive carb street build engine using 246 dur @ .050 intake cams and 10:1 compression pistons yield 470bhp @ 7k. Tons of low end torque. There was a good amount of head work on that build too.
     
  12. Newman

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    #212 Newman, Mar 1, 2010
    490HP at 7200RPM on the BBLM. The issue is they want reliablity not maximum HP on that application so they at least get to race for the day lol, its a trade-off. If I made a peak 500HP on my street carbed boxer I wouldnt be using that level of power daily and under race conditions so reliability wouldnt be an issue for me engine-wise. 500HP can be had, just not on my application with stock CIS and no forced induction. Maybe I should add twin turbos to my CIS.....
     
  13. mk e

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    #213 mk e, Mar 1, 2010
    Paul,
    Have you got your head around what you are think with the cams? I see you are talking about .400 lift but that is going to be hard to get without adding 10 degrees of .050" duration I think???? Thast would still be less than the carb cam duration and you could run closer to stock on the exhaust I guess, but on the intake.....
     
  14. Newman

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    #214 Newman, Mar 1, 2010
    Yes I have some numbers in mind but less than .400" lift for sure (more concerned about flipping a shim off or wearing out lobes) and more than .350". I know my duration at .050". I used .400" for the simulation and had the heads flowed up just over .400" lift to see when they become a restriction.

    I noticed on Carobu's site their BBLM engine was running BBi heads, I wonder why?
     
  15. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    #215 2dinos, Mar 2, 2010
    Those rods are so neat! What happens to the balancing when you take off all that weight? Do you have to lighten the crank counterweights? If so, isn't that pretty scary given the price and availability of BB parts like that? I wonder if you can use an F512M crank? That motor came with Ti rods. I know - I know, try finding one let alone financing one. Very cool project.
     
  16. Ferraripilot

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    #216 Ferraripilot, Mar 5, 2010

    I believe the engine was originally a BBi engine which they converted to BBLM specs.
     
  17. Newman

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    #217 Newman, Mar 5, 2010
    Yes we have to take weight off the crank to balance the assy with the much lighter rods and pistons. The weight loss and balance will free up some HP as will a teflon coat on the skirts.
     
  18. Ferraripilot

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    #218 Ferraripilot, Mar 5, 2010
    I forget the exact calculation for "bhp gained per pound rotating mass according to liters of engine" but it is something like 3bhp+ per pound.
     
  19. 412monzaindy

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    #219 412monzaindy, Mar 5, 2010
    Paul

    Is that you playing with my heads.
     
  20. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #220 Newman, Mar 5, 2010
    I did play with your heads, I saw them at the machine shop when I picked mine up so I measured your cams! Hope you dont mind :) The heads pictured are mine, all mine.
     
  21. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    #221 2dinos, Mar 7, 2010
    I did the PTFE piston skirt along with the ceramic thermal barrier on the piston crown. It was noticeable to slide the piston in the freshly machined bore with the coating. Another coating I've become to respect a great deal is CASIDIUM. It's a carbon coating applied with PECVD (plasma enhanced chemical vapor deposition). I used it on suspension bushings, the primarily ads for it is on wrist pins. It is super hard, and very lubricious.
     
  22. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #222 willrace, Mar 7, 2010
    Where do you get these coatings done? Cost?
    I've wondered about using the thermal/friction coatings in my rebuild, but I'm not sure how much can be gained, since we're still limited by the K-Jet set-up (keeping the externals "stockish' like Newman).
    I haven't really talked with James about this yet, since we aren't quite there yet...I don't think. I'll be checking with him tomorrow anyway.
     
  23. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #223 Newman, Mar 7, 2010
    You can ask piston supplier to add the coating, teflon is $20 a piston more. Im doing it, ill kick your butt! Be a man and opt for the Ti rods too :) Its only money.
     
  24. JCR

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    #224 JCR, Mar 7, 2010
    Casidium = DLC
     
  25. JTR

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    #225 JTR, Mar 7, 2010
    DLC? Dyslectic linear conversion?

    John :D
     
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