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Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Newman, Oct 6, 2006.
exterior all yellow, no boxer black below--black interior. Thanks
I rest my case.
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Hi Boxer boys
First of all...LOVE Boxers! If I could afford one, either a carbed 365 (obviously) or 512 would be THE car for me, outside of the stratospheric "supercars" a la the 288 GTO or F40, and even then it would be very close. Anyway...There is an exchange in this thread where it is claimed that the 365 has a thousand more revs to redline than the 512. Is this really the case?
no. crazy talk. my 365 redlines around 7700 i think. +/- 100 or so. 512 has to be in that same ballpark.
Not sure...I really think the 512 may redline around 6800. Any 512 owners our there who can chime in?
This is gonna start a debate for sure, but the 365 redlines at 7000, the 512 at 6800, and the 512i at 6600. Bizarrely, the 365 quotes max HP as 344@7200 rpm which is above redline.
The 365 has a stroke of 71mm vs. 78mm for the 512s and as such can tolerate a faster spin.
That looks really nice!
eeeeh, you sure about that buzz? my tach must be nuts then because i pushed passed 7500 rpm plenty of times before bill pollard installed the rev limiter.
Just quoting what's in both the owner's and the workshop manual -- at least the PDF version I downloaded from Ferrari. Wouldn't surprise me if the tach redline is different than 7000!
I has my 79 512BB on the dyno before the winter tear down @63000 km
1) 299.8 2)300.9 It is not very clear because the printer ran out of ink and I couldn't wait around for the new print out.
That is pretty close to 360 flywheel HP.
I will have a new dyno run after the break in period..
Complete with 1mm overbore, 10:5 CR, daytona grind Carobu cams, valves etc.
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Good you are running again!!!
The previous shop has stepped up to the plate for an agreed amount.
The car will be ready in about 3 weeks
Redline is well documented to be at 7700, as shown on the tach as well. Sorry, couldn't find a better pic of my tach.
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What book is the best for detailing the differences between the BB, TR, 512?
The book can cover other models as well, but I am specifically interested in the three above, I am going to get back into the market and start looking for 'the right one' pretty soon.
Needs to be a pretty thick book then. I would like to suggest driving all three before you make up your mind. Any reason you don't list the BBi, BTW? It is closer to the TR and 512TR than the BB.
I'm pretty sure if the first three are in a book, so will the BBi...
I wasn't looking for a coffee table book, and maybe the book I am looking for does not exist.
For some interesting and to the point journalistic reading, I would also suggest, as a compliment to your search, finding old 80's and 90's magazines on eBay or the like to read about them from that point of view as well. I have lots of books but found some of the most interesting information, data and photos from a March, 1978 Road & Track regarding the Boxer.
Unless I am misunderstanding the point Onno makes above, my finding is that the BBi experience is not closer to a Testarossa/TR than it is to a BB
all boxers share no power steering, no ABS, front radiators (cockpit heat, weight in ahead of the front wheels) usually inadequate A/C, driving position and so many other things as they relate to looks, weight, performance, and feel that no Boxer shares with the next generation TR's. I find not only the looks, but the driving experience in Testarossa, and later TR's to be vastly different than the subtle differences b/t the BB variants.
Not that there aren't similarities that all the flat 12s share.
The BB evolution follows what is expected "upgrades" to an essentially unchanged basic platform. The Testarossa's and TR's that followed made fundamental improvements and wholesale platform changes reflecting the technological advancements of the day.
I do agree that driving the different cars before making a decision is vital.
What I am trying to say is, it is well-reported you need to upgrade splines on certain years/models because the factory ones crack.
Just as you want an F40 with the new fuel bags installed, there are things about these cars you want to make sure is done.
This is different than one of you saying 'Go find a competent person to do a PPI for you', I was hoping to find something published beforehand so I have a more concise idea on what to look for and watch out for.
And I am unconcerned about performance issues between any of these, BB, BBi, TR, 512, M, anything along those lines. I am not going to street race it. My main concern at this time is the physical issues of each model.
Let's try not to make my original query more difficult than it is.
If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like you are looking for more "technical update/therapuetic upgrade" information for each of the models you mention. For instance, with all the BB's there is debate regarding sodium exhaust valves and carrier weakness (see Newman's thread in this section). But many feel that those two specific areas are worthy of upgrade.
As far as I know, I have never seen anything in published form that aggregates this type of information. But unless someone else has a lead for you, your best bet may be to mine forums such as FChat that both long term owners and knowledgeable mechanics frequent.
Actually, sounds like a great topic for its own thread in addition to posting info here.
I agree with William that this would be a good, and interesting thread in the main boxer/tr section.
The main faults, if you want to call them that, are the sodium filled exhaust valves, the welded ring gear carrier, and the propeller shaft in the transaxle.
These are in all three variants of the Boxer, and into the Testarossa, but at some point were upgraded. But I don't know where the upgrade was made for each of the faults.
For the Boxers, the sodium valves can be changed out, and the welded carrier replaced with either the update Ferrari model, or the one Newman had made up. The propelled shaft can also be changed to the upgrade model, although some recommend against doing so.
A thread in the main section would surely answer the questions, and any others as well.
As for just which car to buy, well, that'll take a test drive for sure! And I can think of worse things to have to do!
I am doing just that, I have been reading on here for five years, I just didn't know if anyone published a decent guide detailing the differences.
The problem with starting a thread on this subject is it would get littered with questions, making it long and drawn-out, and possibly go off-topic.
For example, something like 'factory improvements on the 512 for 1988 are: ', and then also 'private improvements you must consider/make that the factory never addressed are: ', and so on.
Not to intentionally go off-topic HERE, but it is well-known you must replace the factory fuse blocks on 308's, etc. so things of that nature.
You speak of sodium valves, but I do not know which exact models, engines or years to target that have those precise issues.
Did not remind 512 were still built in 1988...
And 512TRs only appeared in 1992.
I'm only posting this here because I read on this thread that it was impossible to adjust individual cylinder mixture on the BBi's. This is not the case. Right next to each fuel outlet on the top of the fuel distributor taking fuel to an individual cylinder, you will see a small allen screw. If you remove this screw, you have access to an adjustment screw for mixture for that cylinder.