News

Boxer Buyers Guide

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Newman, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    I was thinking we should start a thread, maybe a stickey on the in's and out's of boxer ownership (as if there is a down side :) ), sort of a buyers guide with owners experience, things to look for and sources for parts to help other owners or potential owners. This way the info is in one thread that eliminates searching. Whadda ya think?
     
  2. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,406
    sounds good

    should cover the differences with each model which is a common question, too bad their is no sequential factory update list as well would be interesting to know the little changes they made as the cars progressed
     
  3. simonc

    simonc Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    850
    Herfordshire, UK
    Full Name:
    Simon Campbell
    #3 simonc, Oct 6, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,406
    cool
    365 GT4 BB Production Changes

    There are many small detail changes that are not documented here for reason of completeness and accuracy. For example, the style of the bell housing inspection cover changes at least three times, but at what chassis number, I am not sure. Added to this example are the myriad of interior changes.

    Firstly, the 365 Boxer had 4 final drive changes:

    #17185 to #17535 13/45
    #17543 to #18167 12/45
    #18169 to #18787 11/43
    #18955 to #19445 12/45

    At some stage near the end of production, the 365 BB received an uprated rear differential bearing carrier similar (Possibly the same) to the 512BB. I believe this may have been fitted to the last 7 365BB's. Rear differential bearings and transaxle problem plagued the 365 Boxer. If a replacement transmission housing was ordered, the factory always supplied the 512 style housing which was stronger around the differential carrier bearings. Looking at the construction of the 365 transaxle, in my unqualified opinion, I believe the housing distorted in the area of the differential carrier bearings. This led to excessive loads placed on the crownwheel as well as the bearings themselves. I have seen 3 Australian cars with failed differential carrier bearings leading to destruction of the crownwheel and pinion along with the cracking on the transaxle housing.

    #17185 First production 365BB. The next 5 cars had a roof mounted antenna. The early cars (Serial numbers unknown) also had cloth seats. Being a single moulding, the back rest was not adjustable. This was changed on the later cars to full or partial leather with cloth inserts with an adjustable seat back.

    #17543 New cylinder head design L & R. New inlet camshaft, right side only. Modified clutch cable. Minor carburation changes. Modified crankcase breather system. Updated transmission with new input shaft and modified transmission sump with one way valves added to sump baffles to reduce oil surge and starvation under hard acceleration and deceleration. Baffle added to rear or crownwheel assist oil return and reduce gear whine. Alternator mounting bracket modified.

    #17745 Air conditioning system uprated, bigger compressor, belt and evaporator.

    #17847 New crankcase design introduced. Modified inlet and exhaust camshaft for the right hand bank only. Header tank moved from left side of engine bay to the centre of the block. Updated coolant hose arrangement and heater valves to reduce the number of hoses at the front of the block.

    #17993 Cam belt shields fitted.

    #18225 Gear shift linkage modified. New steering column.

    #18237 Further modification to cylinder heads.

    #18265 Modified throttle linkage on LHS of engine, alternator mounting modified again.

    #18431 New steering rack and mounting.

    #18787 Further modification to crownwheel baffle.

    #18955 Uprated LHS differential cover and rear transmission cover fitted

    #19343 Last right-hand drive 365 BB

    #19445 Last left hand-drive 365 BB
     
  5. Randy Forbes

    Randy Forbes Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2006
    741
    Sarasota, FL
    Full Name:
    Sports Cars Plus,LLC
    Thanks, I was just asking for something like this a few days ago :)

    I'd like to spend the winter months learning the detail differences between the 512 BB and the TR models. Frankly, I'd prefer the 512 BB w/Webers (the carbs are no strangers to me). Perhaps by the time spring comes around, I'll be ready to step up to the plate (or wheel/pedals).
     
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    This would also be a great place to get actual vehicle weights, real HP readings and actual performance measurements using a GTech pro for example.
     
  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    Ok, heres my attempt and what I can think of at the moment about boxers in general, more specifically the injected version only because I have one.

    Feel free to correct me:

    Production numbers

    365TG4BB 73-76 387
    512BB 76-81 929
    512BBi 81-84 1007

    As for HP numbers I take all ferrari ratings with a bag of salt with the exception of newer modern cars like the 355 for example. I will only believe actual dyno numbers, same for performance numbers.

    Beginning at the front of the car,

    BBi has small clear park lamps in the leading edge of the bumper, where as the carbed cars do not, why? I dont know.

    Daylight flashers/fog lamps exposed in BBis, some clear, some amber, concealed in 365's also some 512BB's had the concealed lamps (early 512 only?)

    Large amber signal lamps on hood or clear depending on target market. Small repeater on fender in original euro form, large rectangle in its place or in addition to the small repeater after DOT conversion for north american market.

    Slanted rads in BBi with 3 rear mounted cooling fans, 365 and carbed BB has 2 front mounted fans with verticle upright rads.

    365BB and 512BB had tool kit in brief case, early BBi had interior matched leather tool pouch without brief case and late BBi's such as 84 returned to the briefcase after locating left overs in ferrari stock. (interesting)

    18" minispare in 365 and BBi, 19" in carbed 512BB only.

    Fenderwell seals mounted on fender liners on BBi with stainless trim, seal on lids on 365/512BB. 365 lacks bumper trim end caps.

    Rear fog lamps some markets requires different rear bumper and corresponding console switch.

    Windshield internal antenna in BBi, external on 365 unsure on 512BB

    Aluminum hand formed body, wider rear fender flairs on 512 than on 365BB to handle larger rear wheels, more heat extractor vents on 512 boot, very few on early 365BB, adding more during production run so Ive heard.

    6 exhaust tips on 365, 4 on all 512's. All had 4 can muffler system, 365 headers unique to 365, 512BB and BBi same headers and exhaust system. Dealer option for 365 headers on 512 with sport ansa 2 can system.

    Aluminum hand formed body on all models with steel roof and rear cabin side panels, fiberglass bumpers, firewall and floor pans with aluminum covering for underbody air control. Steel tube chassis.

    Front lower spoiler on 512 models, none on 365, no side air scoops on 365 ahead of rear wheels for engine compartment fresh air to assist cooling.

    Interior is leather with standard cloth inserts in seats, cloth headliner and cloth inserts in door panels. BBi has raised door speakers and high manual crank handle access plug, 365 no speaker grills and low plug for window crank.

    Optional leather headliner in 512BBi, full leather seats, no cloth inserts in door panels.

    Momo wheel in silver for 365 and carbed 512, black nardi wheel in 81-83 BBi with 84 having the 84 TR wheel, nardi as well?

    BBi has a pioneer cassette deck with 2 different styles of door speakers depending on year. 5 band eq 81-82, 7 band 83-84, same radio for all BBi's
    (and very hard to find if you need one :) )

    BBi has power locks, key operated only, no interior switch and only controlled from drivers door lock barrel.

    Power mirrors, dual, flexible and not bad looking and they work well.

    Optional gas tank door key hole in BBi body as well as the BBi has the locking gas cap with the pretty horsie on it hiding the key hole.

    All boxers has the rear spoiler to allow engine to intake air preventing starvation at higher speeds. Problem found during prototype testing.

    Air, power windows optional on 365, standard on BBi.

    3 eared spinners or hexnuts depending on model year and market. Most 84's Ive seen have the hexnuts like the 84 TR. My 82 has the spinners.

    Boxer trim paint optional and seen less often in BBi's.

    Dual alternators in all BBi's to cope with additional electrical options, more fans, 2 fuel pumps, etc...

    Metric rims on injected models from 81-84.

    Carbed cars 73-80 injected 81-84

    And much much more to come.....
     
  8. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,501
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    Good start! I'm sure there's a huge wealth of information here regarding these cars, and it would be great to have it located in one thread.

    Well known, but maybe not to all.
    The 365 engines were wet sump, with single disc cable actuated clutch.
    Went to dry sump and twin disc hydraulic actuated clutch with the 512 BB.
    My car, 28633, has three front mounted radiator cooling fans. Two for normal engine cooling, the third kicks in when the A/C is turned on. All three mountings look original.
    When did the BB change from two fans to three?
    John
     
  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    A 79 I was looking at had the 2 front mounted fans only like a 308, never seen 3 ahead of the rads. My BBi has the 3 behind the rad but all 3 operate at the same time and the middle one is yellow of course.

    The 365 is also 4.4 liters rather than the 5.0 of the 512. Some other intersting points about the 365 block was the elimination of one of the main webs for differential clearance in the gearbox below. The 512 saw the elimination of a second web to address stress created from the elimination of the frist web in the 365. The TR block was revised further again in this department.

    I read in a book on the boxer engine that a bent crank from the factory isnt out of the ordinary. And when I say bent, we are talking .001" from end to end. They couldnt explain the reason but that it is "normal". After speaking with a friend, (Tom Bakowski) he mentioned he had a book that showed TR engine components and that the cranks were supported/stored horizonally only by their extreme ends - that explains to me why a 60lb crank would have a sag if it we left like that.
     
  10. steveirl

    steveirl Formula 3

    Dec 29, 2003
    1,156
    ireland
    Full Name:
    steve
    My BB does not have a briefcase toolkit, but a pouch similair to my BBi. Seems that many of the specs can only be guides as to what is normal for the year.
    Steve
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    What year is your BB? You can tell that the bracket for the tool kit is made for a briefcase even in my BBi and they just stuff the pouch there and it sort of stays put I guess. Just Ferrari cheaping out.
     
  12. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,406
    My 512Bb has the 3rd rad fan for the a/c as well

    would add the 365BB has a different rear decklid with a thinner lip ner the cabin area

    365BB has 7 1/2 inch wheels all around 512BB 7 1/2 fronts 9 rear 512BBi TRX rims

    early 365BB no head rests

    my 512BB has the antenna in the screen

    365BB originally held 7 qts trans fluid a factory update added 2 more qts for

    the overfill plug to solve oil starvation issues
     
  13. steveirl

    steveirl Formula 3

    Dec 29, 2003
    1,156
    ireland
    Full Name:
    steve
    Its a 78 BB. Toolkit in pouch in front of battery
    Also my car has three cooling fans on the rad.
    Steve
     
  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    You should have the tool kit in front of the rf wheel and the jack kit ahead of the battery, should you not? Post a pic of the 3 fans.
     
  15. steveirl

    steveirl Formula 3

    Dec 29, 2003
    1,156
    ireland
    Full Name:
    steve
    #15 steveirl, Oct 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes Newman you are right about the toolkit, I was mixing it up with jack kit.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    The center fan on a BB512i radiator is yellow whereas the other two fans are black ...at least on all the BB512i's that I have seen...
     
  17. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #17 Newman, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Correct and I assume all BB's have the 3 grey 308 style fans ahead of the rads.

    Here are some BBi reference pics:

    Power mirror with flexible base,very functional and not bad looking but larger than the vitaloni manual mirror.

    Euro only fender repeater

    Pioneer 82 model door speaker, crap sound if you ever even listen to the radio in the first place

    Pioneer 5 band EQ roughly up to 82 (not sure if its a BBi specific unit), 83's and 84's have the 7 band version.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #18 Newman, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The Nardi steering wheel specific to the BBi in 81 to 83, not sure when the switch took place but 84's have the TR style wheel. The Momo wheel in the carbed cars are silver with a different bolt pattern than the nardi wheel. The bolt circle is lightly smaller and rotated slightly so the momo wheel has a single screw at the top of the bolt circle rather than 2 on the Nardi. The 365 lacks the storage lip on the parcel shelf behind the seats. Dont know the reason for the shell on the seat backs with the vents at the bottom (does the same job without the cover). A friends 84 has no shells onthe seat backs but still has the slot for heat to escape from your back. My seats are not stock but have the proper pattern and material with oversize bolsters done by the original owner when the car was new. Proper pioneer hard to find radio. The radio is the same as a mondial unit but seems equally hard to come by.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #19 Newman, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Rear fog lamps for BBi.

    365 sport headers on 512, not factory but a dealer option so im told along with an ansa sport muffler system. The combination of the 365 header and the 512 valance limits muffler choices to probably just ansa or go custom. I like the sound but to go to a bell or tubi I would need to install 512 headers.

    The black insert in the rear cabin vent seems to be overlooked when a car is repainted so ive seen. They dont bother repainting the strip in the slot. I wonder if black cars come with a flat black slot too?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  20. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #20 Newman, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    512 rear lid full of slots looks great, keeps heat down and is a PITA to clean or wax. If you have an oil leak its great for letting the puff out at a set of lights for eveyone to see and point at while you sink lower and lower into the seat to hide.

    512 clamshell forward lip ahead of the rear wheel opening in much wider than the 365 along with wider wheel flares.\

    Fancy BBi cap, some have the lock barrel on the clamshell behind the tank door, dont know why or what market.

    BBi specific front park lamps, quick way to spot an injected car a mile away if you can see the metric rims. Ive seen a BBi without those lamps but figure the bumper was replaced with the wrong one.

    Like Steveirl said, these are just guidelines, who knows what they did back then and when changes took place. Like the steering wheels for example. Did all 84's have a TR wheel? when did they switch? When did the switch to a 7 band EQ happen?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #21 Newman, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Picture of drivers side lock barrel, I noticed on my carbed 308 that the barrel actually sits on the skin rather than being recessed flush like later 308s and 328's. Do carbed boxers share this characteristic? Mine is flush on my 82 boxer.

    hard to find hood pad made of moulded vinyl or plastic, sometimes crinked up and shrunk at corners so keep an eye out when buying a car.

    BBi angled rad and rear mounted fans

    Washer bottle, seen bags in earlier cars.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #22 Newman, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Underside of front lid, crappy but cool hammer marks from the craftsman that built this car. The two rear edge corners of my bonnet on both sides are the only areas you can see this work without taking the car apart.

    Wheel opening rubber seal mounted on fenderwell rather than bonnet or boot like the 365 and 512BB. Later carbed cars may have this too, not sure, otherwise its a rubber seal attached to the lids.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. steveirl

    steveirl Formula 3

    Dec 29, 2003
    1,156
    ireland
    Full Name:
    steve
    These variables dont only apply to Boxer era cars, a m8 of mine bought a Testarossa this summer from a collector, its one of last made, first registered in 92, the exterior is pure Testa, but the interior has several 512Tr features in the dash, centre console, and seats.
    steve
     
  24. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,406
    recessed door lock on my 512

    windshield reservoir is a plastic bag on 512BB vs bottle

    looks like they changed the hood latches from pins to a ltach on the BBi
     
  25. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #25 Newman, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Some BBi under-shots. Right fuel pump and accumulator, same set-up for the left bank as well.

    You can see the 2 alternators unique to the BBi and a bunch of other goodies. I just love gawking at the underside.

    Proper keys, The ignition one seems to be the one everyone wants $300 for on ebay and $25 for the replacement with the wrong name on it. The diamond one is for the doors and the odd ball is for the locking gas cap.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     

Share This Page