Are design renderings down for employer "fine art?" | FerrariChat

Are design renderings down for employer "fine art?"

Discussion in 'Creative Arts' started by bitzman, Oct 25, 2018.

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  1. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
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    #1 bitzman, Oct 25, 2018
    I am having this discussion with a fine artist and he insists that art done for business is not "fine art," i.e. if you make drawings for a chair design, even one as splendid as the Eames chair, it's only a step in the industrial process. I protesteth mightily and wrote this article, not yet published. but I would like to hear opinions from professional car designers...
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    Are Car Designers Fine Artists?

    Well, what do I know—I am a fine artist but not a car designer.

    But as a historian (18 car histories under my belt) I admire certain car designers throughout history and a lot of them, part of my admiration is based on their renderings of cars to come. Say for instance, Virgil Exner Sr.’s drawings of the Stutz Blackhawk. Beautiful drawings and beautiful car!

    In fact, I daresay that some designers got the contract to go ahead and build the car based on their drawings. So what they created in a few hours or days spawned a great design that we can drive around.

    Now with Detroit designers, time was that they were not allowed to take work home with them. One I knew Larry Shinoda, who did the Mako Shark and early drawings for the Stingray production car, used elaborate schemes to smuggle them out. Sometimes car companies went broke and they threw everything in the dumpster!

    There have been occasions when car designers drawings have been displayed to concours d’elegance, but only one here or there. I remember being entranced decades ago at the Greenfield Village Car Show by a Wayne Kady drawing of a car with a long long hood, some sort of modern Cadillac with 1930’s Deusy proportions.

    Now if you want to get picky about definations, “fine art’ is pretty vague as to what constitutes it, but I’ll wade into the battle, paintbrush in hand. I say car designs done by some artist employed by an automaker or coachbuilder are done for a commercial purpose –i.e. to fit within a certain window. For instance let’s say a tiremaker was involved and so the car has to feature their whoopy do tire, so the illustrator, who might have already had the design laid out in his head, or rough drafts, has to “bend” the drawing or change it from his original conception so the tires look good. Or let’s say the design VP says “And make sure we can still use the tooling for the doors from the X model,”
    so again the artist is bending to commercial uses. So since we , looking at old design drawings now, aren’t aware of the hidden restrictions laid on the artist, we can never consider them pure “fine art” done for aesthetics only, because we don’t know the behind-the-scenes rules.

    Let me compare to commercial art. Van and Fitz were two artists in Detroit who did the Pontiac print ads. There are people who collect Van and Fitz art (both artists have passed now) and frame them and treat them as fine art. But to me, their work doesn’t quite fit the definition of “fine art “ because they were told “Leave room for this headline and this much body copy.” So it’s commercial art done for an ad.

    I can think of one reason car companies do not want their designers dong fine art is because they want them to put in maximum effort at work, not saving themselves at work to pour all their effort into fine art at night that they will sell at a car show or gallery.

    Then too, if you are the automaker and you paid the designer to work all day, you don’t want the rejected designs taken out and circulated where, egad, they could inspire a rival firm! You never know when you are going to go back to an old design, (“Say, Joe, can you go back to the ‘60s file and see how we did that Mustang Station wagon?”) and you as the boss wouldn’t want to go to the file drawer and see drawings you remembered being there gone. Your company paid for them!

    And also one has to consider, the car design business ion 2018 might have finally changed over to computer generated art now so it doesn’ t have the same look, no rich papers, no textured paints. On the other hand, companies like Ferrari hand out some design renderings when there’s a new design they are bragging about. I remember when the Enzo came out and the Japanese artist who worked for Pininfarina –Ken Okuyama--handed out Enzo sketches signed by himself. He eventually left Pininfarina, and I wonder if it was because he was becoming too well known as the non-Italian who designed some of their most beautiful cars or as an artist pushing his own name instead of that of his employer?

    I hope as a fan of car designer renderings that a rapprochement can be made between the automakers, the design firms, and the art world and more design renderings can be featured. One venue I can see as a legit reason is at fund raisers, having designers submit art for sale in a silent auction benefitting charity and then having the artist, upon a sale, be able to write off the sold price off his income tax….





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  2. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
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    #2 bitzman, Oct 25, 2018
  3. jm2

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    #3 jm2, Oct 26, 2018
    This is an interesting question. Much depends upon semantics and definitions of art & fine art.
    My own personal opinion, and it's only that, is that fine art is done by an individual for the purpose of expressing one's self, maybe with the goal of ultimately selling said piece. There is usually no attempt to appeal to a broad audience, and there is very little intrinsic value. You can't eat it, generally can't live in it ( although the architects will argue that point) etc.

    Industrial Art however, and I include Car Design and Product Design, are done for the commercial enterprise. The goal is to sell cars/products.
    The designer is paid for their work, and the corporation 'owns' the artwork. Most companies make their designers sign documents stating that any artwork, design ideas belong to the company as intellectual property. The end goal is to appeal to as many as possible, and sell as many as possible to generate profits for shareholders.

    So then, can the artwork generated for design be considered art? Probably not fine art, but I would argue it could be construed as art by my definition. This has been debated since the profession of car designer began in the late '20's. Art museums never considered car design artifacts as true art.........until very recently. Several art museums started to have exhibitions featuring 'cars as art'. The associated drawings were suddenly debated as to whether it should be considered as art. The Detroit Institute of Art, a preeminent art museum in the US refused to consider cars as art. Period. Recently however, a new leadership team at the DIA decided that MAYBE the automobile could be considered an art form. Obviously these guys and gals never looked at historical Ferraris! So now, the DIA is going to have an exhibition curated by a former boss of mine. The plan is to include both cars AND artwork done in the design process.

    Several years ago there was an exhibition at the Portland, Oregon Art Museum called 'Cars as Art'. It was a great success. They only had cars though, no associated design work. I believe that may be on the verge of changing over time. Here in the Detroit area, there have been several displays of designer artwork from the '30's - '80's. The Scarb Club, an art club in Detroit has had a 'styling art' show which was a huge success.

    The digital era is here and now the designer's tools are the computer, not markers, paint and chalks. This creates another debate as to whether digitally created art can be considered art. I'll leave that discussion for a later date. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. jm2

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    #4 jm2, Oct 26, 2018
  5. jm2

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    #5 jm2, Oct 26, 2018
    Another factor to consider is the destruction of much of the artwork/design work done from the '20's - '90's. Periodically every 6 months or so the design studios would have to purge their files because there was no room to store or keep all the artwork generated during a design program. In the early days, designers would sneak out their work to keep it from being destroyed. During my career every time there would be an edit to 'get rid of everything' I would ask if i could have a pass to take my work out. I managed to save much of it.
    In today's digital world, everything is on servers or in the cloud. It's easy to save it on an external drive.

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  6. jm2

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    #6 jm2, Oct 26, 2018
  7. Jeff Kennedy

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    #7 Jeff Kennedy, Oct 26, 2018
    Is it art? Yes, most definitely. Is it fine art? This is where I am more inclined to say no.

    Car and product design entails 3 dimensional thinking even when the presentation is only in 2D - is there a resolution what is not seen in the illustration. There is also a consideration of fitting a package of components inside the shape. It is part of the process leading to the result.

    Are these items noteworthy and need to be appreciated? Absolutely. And that goes for even the old quick sketches of Prismacolor on vellum like Jerry Parlmer did.

    Look at some of Syd Mead's work and the point of art to fine art gets very blurry.
     
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  8. jm2

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    #8 jm2, Oct 26, 2018
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    While I agree with you 100%, most of Syd's work was not done for an automotive design/styling project. His work was done for the film industry, US Steel, etc.
    He worked very briefly at Ford Design, but decided that it wasn't for him.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login His influence was very strong on my generation as were the AF/VK Pontiac ads of the '60's.
     
  9. Jeff Kennedy

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    #9 Jeff Kennedy, Oct 26, 2018
    Syd also did traditional product design for Phillips. Another were some head of state 747s (Saudi Arabia, Oman) and a 727-200 (Brunei) interiors. For the 727 he managed to set up a perspective to get all 4 walls in the view - people studied how he managed to set that up.
     
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  10. anunakki

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    #10 anunakki, Oct 26, 2018
    I agree with John. Fine art is one persons personal expression. Fine art cannot be made by a group. Now, im aware there have been plenty of 'fine artists' who use teams of artists. I dont believe what they create is fine art even if society does. Its simply product.

    I make product for a living. Ive told many of my employees that while they are on my time they are craftspeople, not fine artists so leave the ego and personal messages at home. We make product, not fine art.

    So to the question of auto design, the answer is...it depends. Syd Mead is a fine artist when he is designing for himself. He is a product designer when he is designing for others.
     
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  11. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 energy88, Nov 9, 2018
    Wow! That is quite a sampling above. I see lots that I would love to have on my walls.

    I think most automotive themed works classed as "art" is really in the eye of the beholder, followed closely by the mood the "artist" sets on the surrounding canvas, and finally by the amount of interest the design of the car creates in real life. I'm coming at this from the perspective of those portraits of pets from photographs typically commissioned by owners to hang in their house. After the owner is gone, the work is still a painting of a cat, or whatever, but the personal bond with the animal is missing for a buyer. The same analogy probably holds true for owners of more ordinary cars who want to memorialize their machines on canvas to adorn their walls.

    Here are two examples I ran across that could border on art (but not fine art) years down the road and are much more interesting than colorized photographs:
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  12. jm2

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    #12 jm2, Nov 9, 2018
    Just today, several of my peers and I were discussing the upcoming art display at the Detroit Institute of Arts, scheduled for 2020. Automotive design sketches are like photography was in the 1920's. It wasn't considered art at the time until several museums and curators decided to display photography as true art and not just the recording of an event.
    The brief period of automotive design art was from the late 1920's - early 2000's. Digital art replaced pencil, marker, paint on paper. Now most of the work done in the design studios is digital. Buy up that old design work now! Before it's gone forever.
     
  13. bitzman

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    #13 bitzman, Nov 20, 2018
    I was surprised, on checking on the Detroit Institute of Arts display, that it is so far off. But that gives us plenty of time to discuss what is, or should be, in the exhibit. I sent them these questions today, I hope they answer:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am thinking of writing an article on the acceptance of car designer's renderings as fine art, as evidenced by the upcoming display at the DIA.

    But I have a few questions for clarification's sake:

    1.)In your upcoming display, is the artwork all privately owned by former designers and their families or is some of it loaned by the automakers?

    2.Will any of the artwork be for sale?

    3. If the originals are not for sale, will any reproductions be available in the shop?

    4. Do the curators feel that the age of doing renderings on paper is coming to c close now that modern designers are using computers?
    In other words, is your display a bygone era?

    5. Have any automakers volunteered to donate hundreds or thousands of design drawings, and, if so, to what model year do they come up to? I can;t image where a '50s drawing would ever be referred back to for new ideas.

    I look forward to hearing from you so my story on your show will be that much more complete.
     
  14. Jeff Kennedy

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    #14 Jeff Kennedy, Nov 21, 2018
    Others will have more current information but I remember that when J Mays went to Ford he pushed to have designers use paper again as they had, in his view, become too reliant upon the computer. Of course J rode into the sunset some years back.
     
  15. jm2

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    #15 jm2, Nov 21, 2018
    An update, Mr. Mays is now VP Design, Whirlpool Corp.
    From cars to washing machines
     
  16. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 energy88, Nov 21, 2018
  17. jm2

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    #17 jm2, Nov 21, 2018
    And GM had Frigidaire
    They had their own design studio. If you were an Exterior Designer, and got sent to Frigidaire Studio..........you were ‘done’. But then the Truck Studio was also considered Siberia
     
  18. Tcar

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    #18 Tcar, Nov 22, 2018
    And American Motors had Kelvinator.

    They later sold it so they could buy Jeep from Kaiser... excellent move.
     
  19. jm2

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    #19 jm2, Nov 22, 2018
    kelvin..........ate........her ;)
     
  20. Jdubbya

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    #20 Jdubbya, Nov 29, 2018
    I don't know fine art from art from posters for the most part but I know what I like and that's what I choose to hang in my house. I have prints (most just poster prints but a few limited editions), I have a few originals, and I have pure junk. But to me each piece has a story and each one I bought for a reason. I have some car content on my walls, some wildlife, some Ansel Adams prints on one wall.....and more. I can say the car stuff either has personal content like the two Fchat posters that werre done for charity using members cars, or just something I saw and liked.One is just a limited print from a SEMA demo an artist I saw did and I liked (kind of art deco looking).

    I can say one thing. When in Italy I got to tour Tom Tjaarda's office as we met him and spent the day with him and I would have loved to have been able to pick a couple pieces of art off the walls of that place!! I would have treasured them like fine art. I think cars and auto stuff can be art, whether it's fine art or not doesn't really matter to me.
     

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