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Aftermarket head gaskets

Discussion in '308/328' started by jdjagguy, Dec 14, 2019.

  1. jdjagguy

    jdjagguy Rookie

    Sep 11, 2007
    19
    Enid Oklahoma
    Full Name:
    Richard Crump
    I would like to hear comments on aftermarket head gaskets. The price difference compared to the Elring gasket is attractive. Are they worth the extra money?
    Thanks, Richard
     
  2. jdjagguy

    jdjagguy Rookie

    Sep 11, 2007
    19
    Enid Oklahoma
    Full Name:
    Richard Crump
    Additional info. The car I need the gaskets for is a QV.
    Richard
     
  3. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 14, 2005
    6,692
    H-Town, Tejas
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,949
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Elrings are junk. They moved production for older products to Spain and the material is different. I have been using nothing but aftermarket, custom made gaskets for 7 or 8 years now.
     
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  5. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Morning all,
    Since that thread was mine I'll answer, with my own experience and personal opinion.
    After a lot of research and emails and special thanks to Martin, who found out that the elring gaskets I had purchased from Superformance UK, were not made in Spain, they were manufactured in Germany.
    The main problem with my engine was that the heads and block were warped.
    With this said, I decided to shave the block and heads, use Elring head gaskets, original 10mm studs and torqued the studs to 10Kg/m.
    Prior to installing the engine I did a hydraulic test... So far so good, installed engine and got it running.
    Engine runs a lot smoother, starts right up, cold or hot(which didn't before, specially worm), operating temperature is lower than before and more stable even in dense traffic.
    The QV is less powerful than the 328, but basically the same engine. A 10mm stud has a tensile strain of 7,850KG... More than enough.
    I know this for fact because the studs are made of 8.8 steel, which holds up to 100 Kg per square mm. If a 10mm stud has a area of 78.5 square mm times 100 equals 7,850Kg.

    If you want pics or additional info, just let me know.

    John.
     
  6. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
    2,713
    Uk
    8.8 is the standard off the shelf bolt spec, surprised by that as head studs are usually a stronger spec. Learn something new everyday
     
  7. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Mike,
    Most common bolts off the shelf are 5.6, 8.8, 10.9 and 12.9. In automotive industry most bolts and nuts are 8.8 for two reasons, first it's strong, 100Kg per square mm is a lot (not like 5.6 which is poor quality steel), secondly and most important is that it stands fatigue very well. The stronger the steel is the more brittle it is.
    Another point is that factory made nuts and bolts are forged (given its shape under pressure), not "cut" into shape using a lathe, this makes a big difference.

    Just as a example, aviation nuts and bolts quality is almost identical to 8.8. To me that means a lot.

    Consider this just my point of view, I'm not Mr."know it all", but in order to convince me, you have to prove a point.
    When I did my research on aftermarket head gaskets, I couldn't find any convincing answer as why I should buy their product.

    John.
     
  8. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
    2,713
    Uk
    We used to use 12.9 black allen bolts in the diesel main engines on a high speed ferry, exhaust of 520C out of the heads and 620C into the turbos. Worked very well but ran out of bolts after a leak and someone put 8.8 flange bolts in by mistake- got hot, then elongated and came loose and exhaust pouring out. No use on exhausts at those temps.
     
    Hinecker likes this.
  9. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2003
    3,996
    SW-Germany
    Full Name:
    Martin N.
    John,
    are you sure, that the studs are just 8.8? Even the tightening torque alone seems high for 8.8 and the bolt load caused by the aluminium head thermal expansion plus compression pressure adds to the stress.

    Best
    Martin
     
  10. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    Glad to hear from you:),
    when I was in the rebuilding process, one of my goals was to have 11mm studs made. Since I intentionally cut one of the head nuts to remove the studs and eventually had to buy a new one, this was the perfect time to sacrifice that nut for steel composition.
    I had the steel checked with a durometer, which is nothing more than a cone shaped punch which impacts on the steel with a certain load.
    Afterwards you measure the depth of the impact, and this way you can find out what kind of steel it is. This was performed by a lab, not by me, I have no such tools.
    I did that test in order to buy the steel and have the studs made afterwards.

    As said before, I'm no engineer, so if the lab test was not accurate, I can't say. You're an engineer and can bring some light on this more than me.

    To be honest, it is not up to me to determine what alloys should be used in one case or the other, I can just rely on what the "experts" suggest.

    John.
     
  11. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2003
    3,996
    SW-Germany
    Full Name:
    Martin N.
    Hi John,

    seems a bit strange to me. Durometers I only know for determining the shore hardness of rubber and similiar elastic materials.
    Since hardness and strength are two different things I am surprised, that a lab can use this method for determining steel strength.
    As an example. A forged part gets much more strength than before the process, but won't get much harder. A bit of course because of the material compaction.
    Basically the bolt classes are designating strength and not hardness.

    Glass is very hard. Strength is not so great.

    Best
    Martin
     
  12. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  13. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  14. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  15. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  16. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  17. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  18. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2003
    3,996
    SW-Germany
    Full Name:
    Martin N.
    Hi John,
    I know, that the spanish folks take supper on midnight, but is 9.00a.m. really still afternoon in Spain? :)

    That makes sense now.

    BTW; your post appears six times.

    Best from Germany
    Martin
     
  19. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  20. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Afternoon Martin,
    I understand exatly what you mean and you are correct, in the lab they cut the nut and did the test on the inner core to determine what steel we were looking at.
    My appologies to everyone, just looked at lab tests... stud material is similar to 10.9, not 8.8 like I stated before, sorry! my mistake:(
    Now the composition of the steel could not be known.
    The tests were performed at Airbus, I have a friend that Works there and did it free:)

    Sorry for the confussion.

    John
     
  21. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2003
    3,996
    SW-Germany
    Full Name:
    Martin N.
    John,
    what's wrong?

    Best
    Martin
     
  22. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
    918
    California SF area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    In the HBO series "Silicon Valley" Ross accidentally set his bottle of Tres Commas Tequila on the enter key and it deleted all the files on the main server, completely wiping out their entire system. :)
     
    Hinecker, thorn and Martin308GTB like this.
  23. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Morning Martin,
    Last night internet was acting weird,

    John.
     
  24. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    334
    Martin,
    Now that we're on this subject, I'm calculating if 4.5 Kgm plus 120 degrees of torque is equivalent to 10 Kgm.
    I'm pointing this out, because, depending on which manual you look, both figures show up(on the 328 engine).
    On the 308 QV it always shows 10 Kgm… according to the manuals the QV uses 11mm studs and the 328 10mm studs.

    John.
     
  25. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,093
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Derek W
    You can guess a fastener’s material with a hardness test as the different grades have different hardnesses. 12.9 is much more susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement and given the corrosion usually visible on these studs I would avoid 12.9.
     
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