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Affordable Future Collectable Cars

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by TexFerrari, Oct 21, 2009.

  1. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Your entitled to your opinion......but my crystal ball says I'm right. :)
    Doubt we will ever see the day when a rich collector has a Civic in his garage next to his Ferrari and Corvette....
     
  2. climb

    climb F1 Rookie

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    #102 climb, Jan 3, 2010
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    Exactly.

    The 240sx, Supra, Civic etc. were the cars at the boom in the import tuner scene. All the big shows (hot import nights, NOPI and others) as well as magazines like Super Street all feature dozens of these cars customized. They owe their heritage to the Skyline which is what i think will be the ultimate collectable in this segment since it always had this mythical status yet never sold in America making it even more rare.

    The hot rod/muscle car crowd had James Dean in Rebel Without A Cause ,Route 66 and drag racing as part of their mythos and the tuner crowd has Vin Diesel in Fast And Furious, illegal mountain racing in the hills of Japan and drifting as part of theirs. Both crowds covet common cars manufactured in the millions and both will have specials of the breed commanding collectable status and a few gems that will rise in value.

    The 240sx is not just used for it's functional aspect as a cheap drift car but modified and customized as well. Any parts catalog or website focusing on the tuner scene will have parts for this car on the front page.

    Like you said too the import tuner kids lean towards German cars as upgrades instead of Muscle cars.
     
  3. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #103 rdefabri, Jan 3, 2010
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    I don't think the fact that they are Asian is the issue - I think it's the numbers produced. You meant the Toyota 2000GT, that runs $150K for a good example - easily Ferrari numbers. However, they only made about 350 cars, and it was before Toyota was the juggernaut it is today.

    I watched a recent Barrett-Jackson auction, and the BMW-Isetta went for like $40K. I bet when that car came out, no one would have expected those numbers.

    I don't think a CRX will be ultra collectible. Perhaps the S2000 and the NSX will, and I'd say the last-gen Supra and possibly the 300ZX will too.

    Again, time will tell.


    Edit: Maine Line Exotics has a 2000GT for sale at $495K!
     
  4. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Yup, I meant 2000 GT. I agree, the NSX, maybe even the Supra and S2000 might be worth something. As for the 240, Civic, CRX, etc....doubt it.
     
  5. drf3576

    drf3576 Karting

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    no jap cars....ever...too many made "look at how important the 240z was to the sports car world and look 40 years later its not that desired"...I cant explain it...its just one of those things.
    sure you have the 2000gt...nsx...and others but for the money those cost...you "most people" will always want something else "usually european"
     
  6. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    LOL! fair enough my friend...

    And as far as the day when we will see it... I have already seen it...

    I know a (former) enzo owner who had his modded 92 civic hatch parked next to his enzo... Took part in the LA street racing seen for years...
     
  7. drf3576

    drf3576 Karting

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    but he was most likely on meth.
     
  8. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    Here's what i would see as "collectible" 40 years from now.

    early 80's caprice classics. not too many of them will be around. I know I will want one since it was my first car.

    VW GTIs and R32s.

    cadillac escalades!!!!
     
  9. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    LOL you owe me a new computer... I spit my drink all over my monitor when I read that.

    No... I assure you that is not the case!
     
  10. climb

    climb F1 Rookie

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    #110 climb, Jan 4, 2010
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    Agree on the GTI. I was going to suggest the original GTI from 1983 may be a collectable but am still putting out the 240sx flames at the moment. As nice as the later GTIs are something about the original still sticks in my mind. I'd like to have a restored or clean survivor.

    As a kid i remember my dad always wanted to get a sports car but just couldn't justify it somehow (wife and two kids) . We took test drives in Porsche 914s, 924s, 280Zs, and finally the GTI but never ended up with anything but a sedan or station wagon. I remember the car salesman telling us as we drove off the lot that it (GTI) would suck the doors off a CRX (lol). During the test drive we actually passed a CRX and i turned to look back at the CRX to see if the doors stayed on the car. I wish VW would make a GTI with 300hp to compete with the WRX STI and EVO...still love the GTI and the R32 is the best of the breed.
     
  11. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Hate to agree with this, because it sounds derogatory, but I think you're right -- primarily because Japanese automakers focus on mass production and rational designs. Collectible cars tend to be things of romance, not rationality.

    That's why we pay through the nose for Ferrari Daytonas, 246 GTS, Porsche Speedster, Jag E-Types, etc., and why a specific engine configuration of some otherwise dull econobox is always going to be cheap.

    And PT Cruiser Limited Editions. Every collector will need one of those.
     
  12. Mrpbody44

    Mrpbody44 F1 Veteran
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    #112 Mrpbody44, Jan 4, 2010
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    These things are very specific to tastes in generations. The whole car hobby is built upon what a 15 year old boy wants but can not buy. He then turns 45-50 and has the money to buy what he wants. I like the current Japanese cars but I think that will all cars built in the last 25 years very few will be collectible due to high volume of production and high repair and parts costs. Car built 1930-1985 are for the most part easy to work on and even easyer these days with the information available on the internet.

    Cheap cars that will be classics

    Any Lotus
    Alfa GTV 6
    Porsche Cayman
    Honda Element
    Honda NSX
    Acura RSX
    Subaru WRX STI
    TVR

    Working on a modern Audi/VW product is a PITA as 1/2 plastic connectors break. 20 years from now where are you going to get those parts? The same goes for a lot of new cars these days.
     
  13. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ
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    One of my earliest posts here was a comparison of the production on the Jag E-Type to the Corvette (notably the mid-year 'Vettes of 1963-1967). The Corvette was, comparably, a "mass produced" car - they made ~118,000 cars in that period - hardly "rare", especially for a car that commands big bucks today.

    The entire run of Datsun 240Zs (globally) was ~164,000 cars - certainly more than the mid-years Corvette, but not a huge difference. Yet, the difference in current price is relatively massive.

    I would not call the 240Z dull or an econobox. It was (and is) an awesome car - one that really helped put Japan on the map for serious automobiles (along with the 510). It may be a perception of Japanese cars being high volume, or the practicality of the cars, but they do seem to be valued lower at this point (2000GT and race cars excluded).

    FWIW
     
  14. climb

    climb F1 Rookie

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    Don't know the exact numbers but they made hundreds of thousands and even millions of Camaros, Mustangs, vettes and 55-57 chevys.

    I see the 57 chevys and and 69 camaros go for $100k plus at car shows and at BJ (not even Copas or Yenkos). Some of the Mopars go for 200k.
     
  15. climb

    climb F1 Rookie

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  16. Challengehauler

    Challengehauler Formula 3

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    #116 Challengehauler, Jan 4, 2010
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    These are going for anywhere between $40K and over $100K right now. New they were offered for a cool $10-12K over the MSRP of a Grand National. Saw one in the DRegistry over 10 years ago for $100K

    There are a few "0" mile examples still in existence, and one white one called X-Ray.

    The $100K cars are showing between 0 and 2000 original miles.

    The funny thing is...they were not noticeably faster than a GN or Turbo T/T-Type. Rarity in number, one heck of an advanced suspension set up, and little tweaks here and there.

    Turbo T's and T-Types were actually lighter than the GN/GNX.
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  17. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Loved these when new. Had the pleasure of driving a few - a real blast!
     
  18. eam3

    eam3 Karting

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    The Corolla GT-S, 240SX, Sentra SE-R and others brought affordable performance within the econobox range. The point you're missing is that the 240SX, wonderful as it was, was a mass produced car with no historical significance (if it would have had a Z or ZX after it, then it might have stood a chance). Other than reliable transportation and a very dedicated aftermarket, what factory models brought anything to the table that would make them Barrett Jackson material in the future?

    The Camaro was the first pony car built by Chevrolet and it earned its reputation on racetracks (both road courses and drag strips) while driven by legendary drivers. It also came in some ridiculously powerful versions built by the factory in very low numbers. Even regular Z/28s were awesome cars and not as common as regular 6 cylinder Camaros, hence their collectible status.

    The '65 Mustang, which was built in huge numbers, was the first year of a car that has become legendary and continues going strong 45 years later (if you can forgive the break it took in the 70s as the Mustang II). Its styling was also a knockout for 1965. Its place in history is sealed.

    Mopars packed some serious HP when properly equipped and the 426 Hemi models were not built in particularly large numbers. So what happens? Yup, they become collectible due to their rarity - despite the fact that the body style was built in huge numbers. The key here is: factory, not aftermarket, horsepower and rarity. A 426 Hemi 'Cuda is worth a hell of a lot more than a 340 Barracuda with a column shifter.

    The '57 Chevy is special in that it was a styling winner and was available with fuel injection, which was quite rare at the time. Ironically, it didn't start gaining popularity until the early 60s when hot rodders started using it as their ride of choice.

    What groundbreaking innovation did the Japanese econoboxes bring to the table that will be talked about 40+ years after their introduction and guarantee their collectible status? Was there a factory version sold in small numbers that had lots more HP than the regular offering? Did it dominate on racetracks? The answer to all of the above is no. Nissan stopped building rear wheel drive 240SXs, Honda stopped building CRXs, Toyota used some magical voodoo to completely suck all the fun out of the Corolla line.

    The CRX Si was certainly revolutionary, and had they continued building on that theme, it might have created a legendary model but Honda gave up on the CRX, replaced it with the lame DelSol and dumped it altogether to focus on Civics instead.

    The 240SX was a wonderful car but just another footnote in automotive history, nothing earth shattering. On the plus side, they were rear wheel drive when everyone else was switching to front wheel drive. That's about it. Ask anyone who is not into drifting and their memories of the 240SX will be vague at best. Now, if there was a factory model that was built in low numbers and came with more power and some additional unique goodies, then yes, I can see that becoming a collectible.

    The Corolla AE86 or whatever - my friend's parents bought him a new GT-S when we were in high school. Great little car with a fun chassis and an awesome 16 valve engine but, aside from the drifting connection in the past 15 years, the market just saw it as another offering from Toyota to compete with the hot hatches of the day. And that was back when Toyota still built fun cars. Did the Corolla line continue, like the Mustang did, as a fun rear wheel drive car with a high performance version? Nope, it's been neutered down to a boring econobox.

    I agree that the NSX, S2000, Supra TT and 300ZX TT stand a good chance at being pretty desirable in the future. They were true performance cars. They offered good HP, handling, braking and looks. The actually brought the fight to the Europeans and the Corvette.

    As for other future affordable collectibles from Japan? I see the first and second generation MR2 as a definite option. They were mid-engined, reliable, well built and a blast to drive. The Subaru SVX might be one for its overall weirdness and rarity. The Integra Type R could qualify because they are pretty rare and are different enough from the regular Integra. Then you have to move up to the Halo cars from Honda, Nissan, Toyota and Mazda because nothing else really stands out.
     
  19. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #119 Wade, Jan 5, 2010
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    Ed, I considered commenting on the RWD merits of the 240SX but your response is much more eloquent.

    Regarding Japanese econoboxes, here's an exception:

    (I'll take a '73 - IRS)
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  20. Pogliaghi

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    #120 Pogliaghi, Jan 5, 2010
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    I don't know if this car has been mentioned or not but I think that the Maserati Merak is a great buy. If one looks for better examples you are looking at about 30K max. Most are selling for around 18 - 25K. The later models without the Citroen hydraulics are the ones to look for. Great looking car and I cannot believe they are so reasonably priced. I bought one and am very impressed with build quality!
     
  21. drf3576

    drf3576 Karting

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    Renault R5 Turbos / 1/2
     
  22. Merak1974

    Merak1974 Formula 3

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    #122 Merak1974, Jan 6, 2010
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    Mentioned in passing in #72... but, worth repeating! The Merak - arguably the best looking car of the 1970s - is still a bargain. Even very good ones can be had for reasonable money. All 3.0 liter versions are highly desirable. The dislike of Citroën hydraulics seems largely to be a US thing. In Europe, where Citroën expertise and parts are quite abundant, this is no big issue. Actually, probably most - if not all - European SS do have the Citroën system.

    Prices are somewhat higher in Europe, and the European cars, being more attractive both visually and performance-wise, are higher priced (everything else equal in terms of condition) than US-marked cars.

    Cheers,
    Gabriel
     
  23. climb

    climb F1 Rookie

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    #123 climb, Jan 6, 2010
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    Don't disagree with your logic but what makes a car collectable or rise in value isn't always logical. It's not the innovations of a car but that it was "the one" or "one of the cars" that a generation wanted during their youth.

    Spend some time like i do at the Nopi nationals or Hot Import Nights and listen to the "someday" modifications the young patrons dream about and it's often a 240sx. Look at the customized cars with tens of thousands of dollars in mods and again you often see this car. I never hear any mention of Muscle cars or Corvettes, Mopars etc. at these shows. It's not that their anti muscle or hot rod it's just that they don't have any desire for them.

    The kids love and embrace this car (240sx XE) for daily driving, drifting and modifying. As they grow older they'll move into BMWs and Mercedes etc but then as they get into their thirties and forties they'll want to reunite with the car/s of their youth. If BJ doesn't want to sell the Japanesse cars in the following decades i'm sure other auctions will if the market is there. Maybe a new Japan based auction will emerge. The auctions will sell to the market.

    I've owned many versions of the Z. 300zx TT (loved it) would be one of the last Zs to become collectable followed by the 350z or any version with four seats IMO. I think your call on the Subaru is a good one though.

    Personally i don't have any real affection for the 240sx. I bought one the first year they came out and liked it's back to basics approach and the way the back end would slide but when i sold it i never looked back. What amazes me is the reaction from younger kids with this car. I'd written it off several times but it continues to keep coming back.

    Oddly enough my 1986 300zx turbo gets more comments and questions about what kind of car it is than any Z i've owned.
     
  24. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Well... I was smitten with the VW Rabbit GTI when my driver's license was shiny and new. It was the coolest thing going, short of a Porsche 944. I still like those early GTIs, as I suspect many guys on this board do, because you could actually lay your hands on one. Same for the original Honda CRX. But if money had been no object I would have had the new 308 GTS QV instead, which is why old GTIs are still pretty much bargain bin cars.

    Tastes evolve. I loved my old Fiat X1/9 as well, but over the years I've realized it was a piece of garbage. Now that I can afford better, I buy better cars.

    I'm sure the 240 SX is like the GTI for these kids, but when they get jobs and own a garage with a house attached they're going to indulge their taste for more serious hardware.

    Ultimately, I think cars are worth what they're really worth. Merc 300SLs aren't getting cheaper because old guys are dying off. Ditto Porsche Speedsters, Jag XK120s, Dino 246s, etc. The guys who bought those cars as younger men aren't driving that much anymore.

    On the flipside, the Testarossa should be insanely expensive now, because anyone growing up in the '80s and moderately successful in his/her career can probably swing $40K-$50K for a car. And it was one the icons of that era. But, TRs are cheap.

    So, the "wanted it when they were young" theory doesn't explain much, IMHO.
     
  25. 412fan

    412fan Karting

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    Finally someone who gets it.
     

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