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Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by TexFerrari, Oct 21, 2009.
would love to find one with the wing and lip spoiler still in the trunk... there has to be one left!
A lot of the cars mentioned will be collectibles in the future for all sorts of car guys, whereas I think a Civic Type R will be collectible in the future for Honda guys. I love all cars, Civic Type R included, but given the choice between a rare big block Trans Am and a Type R, it's a no brainer - the Trans Am wins it by a mile. The Si will also be just as collectible as the Type R someday - just with Honda guys. A high performance version of an economy car with ridiculously high production numbers just isn't that interesting.
There were 2 for sale recently in PA, both with under 50 miles and still on MSO.
I would consider the Pontiac G8 GXP and Dodge Magnum SRT8 to both be future collectibles. Both are the performance variants of their base cars and had short model runs. The G8 should be worth a pretty penny as well because I believe the GXP is only available for the 2010 model year, which is the final model year of Pontiac's existence!
I agree about the GXP, but not the SRT8. They made lots and lots of them. But who knows....
So, Khamsin, SM and Merak are "ugly ducklings"?! I find it hard to think of better and more interesting 1970s designs than those three (OK, Lancia Stratos), but of course I suppose it is all "in the eyes of the beholder"...
The theme of Classic Driver's (http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/1000.asp) advent calender is future collectables. One high-potential classic has been presented every day in December, and there is one more to go tomorrow the 24th!
Mallett Sky, Solstice
94 900 SE Convertible
B GT (C GT, B GT V8)
Rabbit pickup (Caddy)
Fiat 124 Coupe
1990-1995 ZR-1(I have 2 got one for $10.5K)
1996 Corvette GS
1988-1990 Corvette Challenge Cars
1987-Buick GN/GNX T-Type(sleeper)
90s Impala SS
93- Toyota Supra T(They are expensive now)
Porsche 911 RS America
Just before Christmas I heard about a couple of GXPs going for $26K. However, as rare as they are (Solstice GXP Coupe) I'd feel guilty for driving it (as opposed to preserving).
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BMW M3 CSL (E46)
Both very exciting cars, and both will be worth STUPID amounts of money 20 years from now.
This is a good list. I would add "iconic" to the style ingredient. The Countach has held value well because it still looks like nothing else. The Miura had groundbreaking styling, despite its many flaws. The Dino 246 -- a design landmark, despite being produced in large numbers and having no racing success. The Porsche 356 Speedster -- iconic design, racing history, despite being common, not powerful and relatively high production for the era. The Jag E-Type roadster -- common, but widely admired. (Enzo Ferrari is often quoted as calling it the E-Type the best looking car ever made.)
I think we can kind of see how this played out with the Ferrari Daytona and 365 GTC/4 -- the prom queen and the ugly sister. The originally less expensive car is now worth triple the value of the 365 GTC/4. The only reason: style, because underneath the cars are essentially twins.
That's more or less why I can't get excited about M3s, Civics, my ex-VW Corrado, etc. If you're going to collect a car, why would you choose a practical, four-seat, hardtop car with a big boot and a lot of plastic crap inside? You wouldn't. You would want something that looks collectible, which is why there are hundreds of classic postwar American cars that are still dirt cheap.
Lacking iconic looks, these supposed new collectibles have to be so rare that the fringe enthusiasts who specialize in the marque get excited about them, and most modern cars aren't that rare. It takes a serious marque following, and in my experience those of us who fell for VW GTIs, Honda CRXs, etc., were enroute to bigger things: Ferraris, Porsches, Lamborghinis, Lotuses, etc. Hell, I fell for the VW Rabbit GTI back in '83. Would I have one as a collector car now? Not really, because it was built as kind of a cheap car back then. Fun, but not a serious money magnet for me. Given extra garage space, though, an early Countach would tempt me.
Once you stray from icons, the enthusiast base dwindles. Some marques are legendary and have a ready made following. Example: Porsche 993 Turbo S, with only a couple of hundred made -- that's sufficiently rare that the modern Porsche enthusiast community will sustain price levels for it. And it comes from a marque with a huge, devoted following for over 50 years. (From 1948 through 1973, it's hard to come up with any Porsche that isn't collectible...)
While I like the last Supra, it's basically a good car lost in a sea of old Corollas, Starlets, Camrys, Previas and other automotive flotsam. It's kind of like the late Datsun/Nissan 300ZX -- very good car, but hardly timeless. They are now rare and cheap. The only Toyota that really rates is the old 2000 GT, which was a rare bird from a classic era. And even the acknowledged classic Datsun 240Z is hardly a stratospherically priced collectible -- cool car, but very attainable.
At the risk of rejecting most of the cars I grew up with (in the 1980s), I think there will be very few serious collector cars that were made after the mid-1970s. And I say this about Ferrari 599s, as well as Supras, Civics, Boxsters, etc. Too much plastic, too much dated technology and derivative styling are all working against them.
I challenge the idea that automakers are producing anything today that will be collectible in a real sense (i.e., the way that a Merc 540K, Duesenberg, Ferrari 250 GT SWB, Jag D-Type, Porsche Speedster Carrera, etc. will always be top tier...)
(While the Ford GT remake and the Porsche Carrera GT have held value very well, I would argue those were made to be collectibles from day one and basically never driven. They are also distinctive, high end cars, so it's hard to argue they were ever affordable.)
There has to be an inherent worth to a car to be collectible in a serious sense. If you look at a 1950s Merc 300SL, there's the craftsmanship and legendary build quality. Take a 2010 Merc SL550 and it's brilliant to drive, but a complete time bomb with regard to the technology and materials. Only an idiot would bother restoring one when the time comes.
From the iconic design angle, we live in an era with few great designs -- maybe the Alfa 8C and Aston Vantage V8/V12, possibly the revised second gen BMW Z4 -- whether due to a lack of talent or too many tech/safety constraints. We can all debate whether the 355 or 360 Ferraris are better looking, or whether the Corvette ZR1 is better with certain wheels, but ultimately it's all incremental comparison between cars that have the same collector appeal as an old laptop computer.
Nissan 240SX XE edition (with trunk instead of hatchback). The young rice crowd won't let 'em die. I see them all the time with coffee can mufflers,carbon fiber hoods, halo headlights and flat black paint jobs.
Car is a darling of the drift crowd too. I got one of the first ones 20 years ago and could get the back end to swing out all the way around an entrance ramp near my school.
An original clean example will rise in value.
They built over 250,000 240SX's for the US market alone, although I don't know how many were the non-hatchback. It may rise in value but only to a diehard Nissan collector who specializes in 240SX's. I had a Corrado and a Porsche 968, both of which were infinitely rarer than a 240SX and I don't consider either one of them a future collector's car either.
Renault Clio V6, especially the Phase 1 - it's the "original V6", only 1513 of those were made (and 1309 Phase 2's), mid engine, rear wheel drive, no TC or ESP, really beautiful mini-supercar .
They're selling for 15 - 20k Euro now, and I think they're going to go up in the future.
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo Wagon, 2500 of those were made, RHD only. It surely can become collectable, but maybe just for Mitsubishi fans?
Ford Escort Cosworth is another car that could be "future collectable", 7145 were produced, first 2500 units were homologation specials.
I had a Corrado VR6, almost bought a 968 cabrio. I really liked that 968, and they're impossible to find nice now, but the market seems to consider them another orphan in the unloved 924 branch of the family tree. The 968 cab in white was simply stunning, and deceptively fast.
Today's kids don't embrance the Corrado and 968 (both great cars too IMO) the way they do the 240sx.
1989 Ford Thunderbird SC
I'm pertty sure that one will turn into a collectible gem .
You guys reminded me of how badly I wanted a VW Corrado back then
and I don't see them as collectibles right now
I rest my case. Kids love them for the TiZzItE MaD drifting Yo! Remember, we are talking about collectible, not whether the car is great or not. For adults who are looking for a collectible, the 240SX is pretty far from the top of the list, as great a car as it was. Trust me, the 968 was a fantastic car in every aspect (it did everything right and was bulletproof reliable to boot) and built in very low numbers. Today I see a 968 maybe once every two months if I'm lucky, whereas I see Ferraris on a daily basis and Lambos at least once a week. That car is 10x more likely to become a collectible than any 240SX but it still will not live up to the hype of the '88 and '89 944 Turbo S, so its future collectability is doubtful.
And... although difficult to define, this thread's title specifies Affordable.
I completely disagree with the 240 not being near the top of the list. There were 1 million 65-66 mustangs made. Its most definitely a collectible car. How many 1st gen camaros were made? They are collectible too. I understand what you mean by production numbers, but to be collectible a car does not have to be rare. usually it has to have had a mass following and/or supported a culture... the 240 has a massive culture and a style of driving associated with it that will stick with the 15-30 year old crowd for decades to come. The 240 and AE86 made the sideways craze. The 240 is the small block and big block chevy v8 of the drifting circuits. It will be collectible in the future no doubt in my mind. from the S13 to the S15.
Time will tell. As the former owner of the "original" 240 (the Datsun 240Z), I can tell you that production numbers have kept the prices down. Yet, in actuality, the number of surviving Z's is really small today, but still they aren't big $$ items at the moment. A fully restored example might run $30K. By comparison, a fully restored E-Type (of which I also own) would be closer to $100K.
That being said, I think there is truth to what you are saying. There are generations of kids cutting their teeth on cars like the 240SX and they will be desirable one day. We will see.
Sorry to say I 100% disagree about all this 240SX/CRX/Civic talk. IMO, in no way will you see a CRX at a Barret Jackson auction. Even though many had them as cars when they were younger that in no way makes them a "future collectible". The cars offer nothing and where economy minded cars. Hardly any Asian cars are collectible. The only ones I can think of are a few old Toyota 3000 GT's and old Z cars. And they don't even fetch that much. Just because someone owned the car doesn't mean they will want to pay a premium for it in the future....
I know you are a chevy guy and all... so I kind of expect to see a little distaste when it comes to "rice," but I will guarantee you that you will see CRXs or an Si or a Type-R or a Supra or an RX-7 go across anyone of the blocks. The muscle car craze is what took the 60s to early 70s car to great heights. The Import craze will do the same. In fact it already has raised prices of some of the cars. The CRX,Si, Type-R etc will be collectible. The title of this thread is Affordable collectible cars. Will these cars bring HUGE money in the future? No, but they will be collectible. Just as 2nd gen camaros are collectible. They aren't worth a whole lot, but they are collectible, just as 60s mustangs. They aren't worth a hell of a lot and they produced the **** out of them, but they represent an era and a culture. Cult followings is what makes cars worth collecting or worth money. Some may argue that that is the reason why a 308 is collectible, or a 456 or several other less desirable ferraris are actually collectible. Because of the mass CULT following Look at air cooled VWs. Early split windows or convertibles are absolutely collectible. The 21 window busses are collectible. Are they fast? NOPE. These VW were supposed to be the peoples car and be ECONOMICAL, yet today they are collectible. Why? Cult following. The original MINI cooper? never really fast except for in its "class" (hard to call a car with less that a 1000cc's fast yes there was the "big block" 1275 but they were not in the majority)
While yes, Civics, intergras, etc... represent an economical time, they were the birth of a MULTI-BILLION dollar industry. Source of several movies and many world records. The first front wheel drive car in the 9s will probably be worth something. The first import in the 8s will probably be worth something... etc.. etc... Also, as far as economical... the Honda insight which was a hybrid car with a very aerodynamic shape... a guy took one of these, but a K-series 2.4L engine in it... and ran 9's ALL MOTOR. Not very economical. Regardless of the roots of the car, it was the start and building blocks of a generation of fast cars. I would even venture to say that the post 2000 boom of "modern muscle" type cars is due to these. Many of these people who took part in the 90s import racing etc... either rode the billion dollar industry and made lots of money and wanted a mercedes sedan with a 6.3L 507hp engine, or a cayenne turbo or a M5 or a C6 Z06 etc... im not saying it is directly effected, and caused by the import craze, but you can NOT doubt that many of these people grew up, got real jobs and bought some really amazing cars. I know I am one of those people.