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812 without GPF or with? Is there power difference?

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by Sylvainsm, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. KarlA69

    KarlA69 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2017
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    That's great news. I'm sure it won't be long now before one of us can also hear the car in person and confirm. As soon as I hear it and put my mind to rest I will proceed with my GTS order and focus on choosing the right spec :)

    I did have a thought that maybe Ferrari would deliver press cars / demonstrators without GPF to make them sound better. Although that could lead to lawsuits for misleading customers. I'm probably just being paranoid...
     
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  2. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    Don't worry about the demo and press cars. They didn't do it for the F8 or SF90 either. All GPF. Ferrari seems to be willing to take on the GPF thing pretty upfront, so I doubt they will play games. Besides, from what I'm told, the production line is not even designed to handle the assemble a GTS without it. But yeah, I hope to see one in a showroom soon.
     
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  3. Cnoordz

    Cnoordz Rookie

    Jun 28, 2018
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    It's not like the GTS is simply an 812 with a gpf. They've put in incredible work to make it perform and sound as if it were one without.
     
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  4. KarlA69

    KarlA69 Formula Junior

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    Sure... but those efforts are not always a success.... "The result is an unmistakable engine timbre that is superior in terms of both the intensity and quality of the sound" (from the Ferrari official F8 release - the car has GPF). Based on hearing an F8, I would say that is a highly ambitious statement....

    https://corporate.ferrari.com/en/ferrari-f8-spider-evolution-species
     
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  5. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    Ferrari is fighting a lost cause with the F8. They can't put that it sounds like crap in the brochure, so what else are they supposed to do? They are basing in all on the hot pipe thing and hope for the best. But you have to remember one thing. Their designers, engineers and drivers are no different than us. They hear what we hear, and they know they fight an uphill battle.
    Not sure what the story is with the GTS, but from the review I got, it would seem like they have pulled it off. Don't forget that what shapes and forms the sound on the 812, is first and foremost the intake. Who knows, maybe some tweaking of the manifold and different cams is what is the cause. The turbo V8 does not have this advantage, as the turbo engine is muffled by the compressor on the intake side, and then once again on the exhaust side. Add a GPF to that, and you are pretty much done with sound. The 812 has much better chances of sounding great.
     
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  6. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Maybe some enterprising types will chop the top off a 812 SF and create a real convertible; sound and all! Just like they did with old Daytona coupes...:oops:
     
  7. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
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    So for a controversial opinion here ;)
    The sound of the V8 has always been crap, the mediocre quality was "compensated" with higher volume / noise which was enough to address impressionable people.
    The issue with the turbochargers and then the new noise regulations (more than the GPF in itself) is that this trick is no longer available.
    V12 did always rely on sound quality rather than on volume, so hopefully the new rules (including GPF) are not that detrimental.
     
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  8. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    Too much focus on exhaust noise, which has always been the weakest part of sound quality and easy to ‘manufacture’ or synthesise (Merc and Aston perfect examples). Induction roar and metallic, mechanical movement gives purer and more pleasant engine noise. Porsche knows it better than anyone. All of which makes fchat’s moaning about exhaust issues a bit moot IMO.
     
  9. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    Because everybody enjoys an integrally compromised car that will kill them in case of a serious accident. No? :rolleyes:
     
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  10. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    Spot on! Preach it, scream it from the rooftops! What I really like about the current V1w lineup, is that the sound is in fact induction focused. Few people actually realize it. A great example is an 812 or Lusso when you put your foot in it, all the way. You can hear how the manifold the uses both long and short runners, and breathes harder. The sound gets bigger and enters the car aggressively from the engine compartment rather than the rear. Like a GT3RS, a GT4 or a BMW E46 M3. It's mechanical, it's raw and alive. This is what the 458 and to a point the 430 never have given me. Yes they are loud and all, but it was not really the sound of a working engine, it was just a noise. A Lambo V10 is no different. Then people stick an IPE exhaust on for an "F1 sound" that sounds nothing like an F1 or an actual engine for that matter. A loud undefined scream, but with little in terms of heart and transients.

    So yep, this is ultimately why I have been on the wagon since 812 GTS day 1, with little worry for the sound despite GPF. I'm positive:)

    Soap box rant over:D
     
  11. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    #61 REALZEUS, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
    Cannot agree more, sir! Some time ago I was in the organising committee of a rather serious track day and had to be on the start-finish line, hands on the computer for flagging the event, and all. I took off my ear protectors and listened to the cars.

    The Ferrari V12s were in a league of their own. It's hard to convey the sensation, but you could actually hear the engine having an orgasm when it was heading your way, not the exhaust; it was like a menacing beast that was trying to digest its own gut and spit it out!!! As it passed you, the bellowing exhaust note was also heard, like a cry for help.

    The N/A V8 Ferraris were also glorious, but not even close.

    The F40s*, in particularly, were all hisses and puffs, loud and angry, but not sonorous at all!

    The Lambos were also glorious, as were the N/A Porsche GTs and the N/A Ms.

    The rest sounded like bloated old farts; especially the AMGs.

    When I am driving in these events I don't get to hear all the cars. This experience was enlightening though.

    *PS: It was my poster car when I was a pre-teenager when it was launched. A case of "don't meet your heroes" for me, when I drove it in anger.
     
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  12. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    Indeed we do. Who could ever turn down the opportunity to drive a Cobra with a roots blower slapped on top of a Hemi. It's a death trap, but what a way to go:D
     
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  13. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    LOL!
    Not me mate. I would rather die in an F1 2-seater. Scrap that. The Russians rent a back seat in one of their MiG or SU fighters for some 30-40k Euros. I 'll take the MiG 25, 100,000 ft, Mach 3, death!!! ;)
     
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  14. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    #64 Il Co-Pilota, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
    Can't really agree on the modern Lambos. They are all synthetic exhaust znd little in terms of induction noise to my ears.

    As for the AMG... My lord they are horrible sounding. One big flatulent mess of a sound. I really find it funny that so many currently are so pissed off at Porsche for the terrible sound of the four pot Box and Cayman engine - and then the same numbsculls rave on about how awesome the AMG sound is. They are literally some of, if not the worst sounding performance cars out there - truly dreadful fart machines.
     
  15. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    Fair enough, we seem to agree on most things, we can't agree on every single thing. lol
    I like their V12 though. It's not Ferrari V12 quality, but it gets close.

    PS: AMGs sound like American engines...
     
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  16. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    Indeed:)

    But that last one? Nah, not even close my man. One may not be a fan of American muscle, but some of it sound absolutely glorious. While the sound is entirely different, some of the big cube high revving stuff with a large solid roller cam, will give any Ferrari V12 a run for its money:) Totally different, but equally as natural, violent and soulful:)

    That's the issue with the AMG. No nouances or anything. Just a blatter that gets faster and louder. Some of those well built SBC and BBC engines have as many nouances and can present an equally spinetingling crescendo at 7500-8000 rpm as any proper V12 exotic.
     
  17. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    What was I thinking! Humble apologies for my uncaring faux pas. The old bones would obviously be better preserved in an official original authentic genuine E-type convertible when challenging the capricious laws of physics...:)
     
  18. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    I understand where you are coming from, but these American V8s sound too dull, bored and "heavy" to me. Not even close to high revving, European V8, let alone a V12. I guess it has to do with our upbringing. In Europe we used to listen to screaming V10-12 engines, our american friends used to listen to thunderous V8s instead.


    HAHA!!! Loved your gibe towards me! ;)

    My E-Type is a coupe BTW, but I would never try to defy the laws of physics in it, even though I have seen an indicated 140 mph... :)
     
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  19. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
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    While I definitely agree with you to an extent, I don’t think you can completely discount volume level.

    Yes, we have all heard loud, obnoxious cars that sound like absolute crap. Just because a car is loud does not mean that it sounds good.

    However, we must remember that sound is simply comprised of sound waves and sound waves are just another form of energy. The louder the car, the more energy. For this exact reason, a louder car creates a much more visceral experience. In the same way that turning the G-forces up (either through faster acceleration or more grip/downforce through the turns) creates a more thrilling experience, turning the volume up does as well.

    Imagine going to a rock concert for your favorite band. Imagine all the sensations. The sights, the sounds... everything adds up into an experience that is unexplainably awesome. Now imagine that same concert, but the speakers and amps have been turned down to 1/10th the volume due to new regulations.... kinda kills the vibe doesn’t it? Doesn’t matter how great the band is if you can barely hear it.

    So you are exactly right regarding the V8’s and other cars that struggle in the “sound quality” department. Turning up the volume absolutely makes up for their shortcomings. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t awesome in their own right. More importantly, the effects of the new noise regulations should not be understated. When they go into effect, new regulations will require that new cars are over 10x quieter than what we are currently accustomed to. This will absolutely ruin the experience as we know it and there is no way around this fact. The only hope is that manufacturers will get a clue and offer louder exhaust options for countries that choose not to limit their citizens freedom to express themselves (congrats to all our friends in the UK!!).









    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  20. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Based on your concert analogy the F8 hot tubes are like earbuds instead of outside speakers.
     
  21. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    Well my upbringing is European, or Scandinavian I should say.

    I'm just a carguy who loves the sound of speed and passion. The V12 engines are absolutely brilliant, but some of the flat plane V8 engines are to me, one note honkers. I really like the F355 and 360CS. All intake, natural and raw. Can't say the same for the artificial sounding noise of a 458. I know this is very controversial, but I simply don't get all the fuss about the 458 sound. Loud yes, but monotone and artificial in my ears. Some of those high strung American V8's may sound rough, but it's a powerful sound with a ton of interesting nouances. Not a particular big fan of say a stock C7 etc. but a built 572 with a huge solid roller Crane cam, and 14:1 compression, shaking surrounding buildings and putting out a thunderous howl at 8000+ rp, should hopefully evoke some kind of response from any petrol blooded car enthusiast. It doesen't get much more visceral and physical than that.
     
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  22. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    That's not entirely off. There's no doubt a set of in-ears can sound heavnly, I own a pair of Jerry Hall in-ears, I know they can. But it is nothing like a large venue where the ambience is there and the audio is physical. There's a huge difference. Flooring a V12 through a tunnel or the physical sensation on a cold-start, the reverb when pushing it on a forest road, that's all lost with those "Hot pipes".
     
  23. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    In the end it's a matter of personal taste, like the design. Personally, I love the sound of the 458.
     
  24. Evo X

    Evo X Rookie

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    Not all AMG engines sound terrible.

    Technically, a Pagani Zonda has an AMG V12 and it's one of the most glorious things I've ever heard.
     
  25. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    The "old" N/A and compressor engines were definitely better. But the current turbo engines, especially the V8 engines are more flatulent sounding than the bathroom at a vegan convention.
     
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