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812 without GPF or with? Is there power difference?

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by Sylvainsm, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Sylvainsm

    Sylvainsm Karting
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    Does the 2018 and 2019 812 SF make more power than the GPF equipped 2020 models? If so why are they quoting the same power on the 812 GTS?
     
  2. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    You you answered your own question, they are the same.
     
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  3. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
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    Word is, from engineering team asked at the event (by others, not me) was specific power was increased 2% (I think it is probably 4% increase given losses shown by BMW's lack of engine output modification : http://www.driversmagazine.com/bmw-will-retain-bigger-v12-engine-till-2023-thanks-upsurge-demand/)

    So, if somehow you could remove the GPF you would have 816 PS (or so) of engine power.

    Know this: engine power was increased to have same advertised power level, the GPF definitely is a restriction on power of the engine so only way to overcome is to increase how much power the engine produces, this is simple physics, you cannot add a restriction and expect same power output without making changes to the engine. The engine must exert more power to overcome to have same result.
     
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  4. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

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    Absolutly right ! perfect and very clear
     
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  5. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    Your point is they engineered or installed *something different* along with the GPF between 2019 and 2020 cars. Agreed.

    Not to split hairs, but the OP asked if there is a *power difference.* As measured/publicized by the only data available, the factory data which shows both models with the same specific output, the answer is no. ;)
     
  6. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
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    Approximate review:

    [engine 824.73PS] + [catalytic -19.73PS] + [muffler/silencer -5PS] = 800 PS

    [engine 841.22PS] + [gpf -16.49PS] + [catalytic -19.73PS] + [muffler/silencer -5PS] = 800 PS

    reference for approx gain on catalyst optimization:
    https://www.motor1.com/news/233720/wheelsandmore-tuned-ferrari-812-superfast/

    So, the 'net' output remains 800PS but the engine was stroked 2% to get that net result (and perhaps some exhaust channel optimizations were performed as well in the headers or other..I am needing to review the press release, looks like there is something mentioned there)...if not, the MY2020 812SF/812GTS would have about 783PS

    That means the GPF provisioned 812's are making more power at the exhaust headers than previous...but, it has to in order to achieve same net result

    Now, the big question regarding any power difference, that will need to wait until the MY2020 812's with GPF can be put on a dyno and compared to a previous MY 812...that will ultimately tell us what's what...
     
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  7. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    #7 klinkman, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Now you're on topic: it's difficult to know without data.

    And the exercise as described would not lead affirmatively to the conclusion you wish to draw.

    One high performance brand (shall remain unnamed) I owned in the past regularly saw ~3-5% output variation of supposed identical motors that came off the assembly line at the same time. Outlier motors showed as much as -3% under to over +10% rated output during year1. I imagine Ferrari, like other performance brands, specs a minimum HP number, not an exact one as your model assumes.

    *Ultimately telling you what is what* assumes you're starting with zero manufacturing variance between the two motors, that's before exhaust systems, GPF and other "somethings different" in 2020 over 2019 power plants. The testing you're describing will give you nothing more than a baseline measurement of output of those two specific motors. Maybe they're identical, but maybe (likely) not.

    If you really want useful data, you would have to quantify the differences between the two MYs, then swap the GPF and whatever "differences" on and off the block and retest. And hey if one has that kind of resource and energy, more power to them. It's not worth quantifying for ~2%, imho. So I'm just going to take the clue from the factory and call it the same. ;)
     
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  8. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    One thing I'm asking myself. If the GPF absorbs less power than the cats, I would think that means they are less restrictive than cats. Furthermore, could the case be that with GPF, cats needs fewer cells to do their job after the GPF? Same with the muffler? Could it be that the car in the 812 GTS video sound so much like the 812 SF because is in fact not that much more restriction due to smaller cats and better injectors?

    It is also worth noting that exhaust components that do not produce a huge restriction at max power, 16 ps @ 800 ps are for all intended purposes not that much in the grand scheme of things, tend to effect lower rpms much less as much less air is being moved. From what I gather, a 2% loss @ 8500 rpm should equate to a 0.25% @ 4250 rpm, as it only takes 1/8 of the power to move the air past the same restriction at half speed.

    I wonder if those guys answering the questions are being 100% correct about those 2%. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's attended a Ferrari launch event in the past, and incorrect technical or other information has been given as answer to a question. Not saying that the 2% figure is not right, just saying that it might be worth taking it with a grain of salt as it might be a guess or an assumption. I think all this is a possibility as I'm sure Ferrari has done as much as they could to retain the sound of the V12. Some of those guys are pretty clever and the sound of the V12 is a pretty big deal for Ferrari it would seem.

    I will stay optimistic till I hear the car properly:)
     
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  9. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    Not really my thinking, I am thinking of a noticeable difference, say, for instance, 760PS for 812SF and 720PS for 812GTS (power at the wheels for a dyno) and noticeable variation in power and torque curves throughout the rev range...or as you note, no real difference, great, so all that would prove is the V12 power output was increased to accommodate the GPF devices (there will be two as there are 2 exhaust channels...), but really don't need to wait for the the 812GTS, any MY2020 812SF will do as it will have GPF too...
     
  10. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    Cats and GPF serve unrelated purposes...

    https://www.basf.com/global/en/media/science-around-us/catalytic-converter.html

    GPF's job is to actually trap fine particles, burn them and catch more, Cat's job is to mutate exhaust gases (i.e. acting as a catalyst) into a less harmful gases like water, nitrogen and carbon dioxide ...these are mutually distinct functions, so, GPF inclusion will not change the demands of the catalytic converters.

    As for the 812GTS video sound, I doubt that was the sound of the 812GTS + GPF, otherwise I am confident Ferrari would not of intentionally prevented their invitees from hearing the 812GTS aural abilities...
     
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  11. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    The power figures are C_hp. The DCT is pretty good when it comes to power transfer, so let's for simplicity, say 10% parasitic loss. Also, the C_hp is Net. power, i.e, it is power with all accessories, all asthmatics as well as exhaust. Not entirely sure which standard Ferrari uses, but as with most manufactures, I'm sure it's very similar to SAE J1349.

    So if Ferrari claims 800 PS, it is 800 PS at the crank fully dressed and chocked down. So from that, we can deduct that it will make 720 ps at the wheels. Now had it been gross power as measured pre-1972, it would have been an entirely different game, as that is measured with no power robbing add-ons.
     
  12. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    I was not aware of that difference.

    Are you entirely sure they were intentionally trying to prevent people from hearing the cars? I believe they were not heard at the TdF and 812 SF preview either. And if Ferrari was truly terrified of the sound, I don't think they would have showcased the sound of the SF90 like they did.
     
  13. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    Yes I am confident of preventing the audience from hearing the car. I have input from several that attended (including mentions on fchat by same) they were never allowed to hear the car, when asked, they were told it will sound great, not to worry, but otherwise, was not presented.

    As for the 812 preview, I actually searched fchat for that and found no record of such a private reveal, it was known as the F12B or F12M and then suddenly there was a Ferrari press release on February 16 2017 and then messages started...
    and 4 months after Geneva reveal (March 7 2017) he is one of the first drives:


    so, let us see what "third party" drives sound like...

    I did not search for the F12Tdf preview, sorry I have no answer to those, but, I do know from first hand accounts the 812GTS private reveals did not include hearing the engine...
     
  14. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    There was a launch similar to this for the 812 and it was before Geneva. It was when the car got its name and renderings were released, so it was not called F12M during the preview. I believe it was done over a three day period. Maybe others here can chime in.

    I was told the same thing as you from those I know whom attended on the 5th. And the two I know whom attended the TdF launch, it was the same. No sound demo, even when asked for by clients.

    On one of the 812 Spider pages, someone mentions hearing the car being driven away, and he said it sounded great from what he managed to hear.
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/146799576/
    quote:
    The engine was turned on for a brief moment when most people left - sounded great as usual. The head of engineering is very confident that the sound will be the same in the new era of GPF

    could not locate mention of car being "driven away"

    that's a one-off report and no others, so I discounted it as was an exception, poster apparently has a GTC4Lusso V12 but I wonder if the 812GTS being shown was actually a car with the GPF devices installed...it may not have been...I understand that it is actually still being worked on...if so, that would explain why they would not start the car for the audience to hear because it may not be the actual sounds they will hear in the production version...
     
  16. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    My dealer did not run the engine at their 488 debut. If you will recall, it was the first iteration of the small turbo V8 in the 458 chassis and everyone wanted to know what it sounded like fearing the loss of the NA shriek. There was a reason he did not run it. That's not to say the new 812 won't sound great just likely not as good as the prior version. You don't want potential buyers getting turned off and lose deposit money.
     
  17. Doug23

    Doug23 Karting

    Jun 23, 2017
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    So we can expect a new type code for MY20 812's GPF-ed engines?
    Current one is F140GA
     
  18. Horsin'around

    Horsin'around Karting

    Jun 14, 2017
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    I am taking delivery soon of my MY20 produced right before the Italian summer break and am curious too how to confirm that there is no GPF.

    Anyone know how to tell without taking the car apart?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I would think if the dealer has a 2019 or earlier model on hand you could compare. Mine will be here soon shortly as well- I'm hoping they won't be fitted. But if they are, I am sure Ferrari will have make every effort so the sound is still fantastic.
     
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  20. deltona

    deltona Formula 3

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    My July build car has been delivered (UK) and confirmed with no GPF.

    I expect the GPF version will have a mention of the GPF in the user manual?
     
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  21. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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    They should also have a different type approval on the registration papers, I guess.
     
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  22. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Since the GPF has such high physical volume and the fact that it goes through large heat cycles leaning the engine to incinerate trapped particles, I would guess that the mid lower body cover has different openings to let the much greater heat out or the panel would eventually burn. So I think you just look under the car with a mirror or while on the lift and compare to the earlier underside. It will be interesting to hear the unavoidable sound difference due to the GPF devices.
     
  23. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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  24. LandandcarsAZ

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    Looks like they already figured out how to get the filter off of the Porsche’s. Should be Ferrari next then.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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