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488 decat without tune

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Senna2394, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. Senna2394

    Senna2394 Karting

    Sep 12, 2020
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    Yousof
    Hi will you get any problems if you install catless downpipes, novitec exhuast but without a tune?
    Will the car be able to controll AFR?
    Was thinking of this setup and with 02 sims.

    If its a problem will downpipes with 200 cell cats solve it. (I think you get a CEL with 200 cells)
     
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  3. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    761
    You will get a check engine light without a tune for decat. Also the smell will be very noticeable. If you are stopped at a light with the windows down, you will smell it inside the cabin.

    200 cell cats is a lot less likely to get CEL. It can still happen, but it will be infrequent enough that you can just clear the code manually each time and it shouldn't come back for a long time.
     
  4. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    The ECU in the car is programmed to take into account those parts which you are removing. So when it samples the signals from the upstream and downstream O2 sensors, it's assuming the reading should show a specific level (this would be especially true if Ferrari is using wideband O2 sensors, which I would guess they are).

    I've fun hyper flow cats on my cars in the past and not had any check engine lights. I never ran them on the 458 or 488 however.

    Ray
     
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  5. Senna2394

    Senna2394 Karting

    Sep 12, 2020
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    So I have a novitec exhuast sitting in the garage, im thinking to order kline innovation 200 cells downpipes. Will this trigger a CEL?
     
  6. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Usually as long as you have some form of catalytic converter in the mix, then it will cook off enough of the emissions to avoid triggering a check engine light.

    Look at it from this standpoint: a brand new 200 cell catalytic convert probably works as well (if not better) than a factory catalytic convert that has 10K miles on it. Also, keep in mind that when you drive, the air/fuel ratio moves all over the place anyway, so the ECU expects to see some situations when things might be more rich or more lean during operation. I'm not super familiar with how the 458 or 488 handle the O2 sensors and/or if they are using wide or narrow band sensors or what. However, usually as long as you have some form of catalytic converter in the mix, then you are okay. The CEL is most common when you are running straight pipes.

    If it does trigger a check engine light, you can always try buying a stand off adapter and pull some of the downstream O2 sensor out of the direct exhaust flow. The other thing to understand is that most of the monitoring is done by the O2 sensor which comes before the catalytic converter typically; the one after the converter is just confirming things were burnt - and so long as there is some catalytic converter operating, usually that's enough to keep the ECU happy.

    Ray
     
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  8. Senna2394

    Senna2394 Karting

    Sep 12, 2020
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    I have the novitec exhuast and just want it to be louder. Will it be worth the money just for the sound?
     
  9. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Yes, it will be louder.

    I installed hyper flow cats on my 360 and it made it pretty loud - basically too loud for me. I personally didn't like the sound and felt it made the car too loud. But I understand a lot of people like really loud exhausts. I just don't know if loud always = better sound.

    Anyway, if you install the less restrictive cats, it definitely bumps the sound level up a bit. I was running a Tubi exhaust with the hyper flow cats on the 360 and my friend had the same setup on his 355 (Tubi w/ hyper flow cats). His car sounded amazing, while mine just sounded sort of annoyingly loud. So a lot has to do with the overall design of the motor.

    But since you are dealing with a 488, which has twin turbos, I would guess the volume shouldn't get you up into the annoying level. On the 488, you can run straight pipes and it will still sound really great. So I would think 200 cell cats should get you more towards that direction and should sound pretty nice.

    Ray
     
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  10. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    May 29, 2019
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    If I may post a suggestion.

    You want the sound so gobwith a 100 cell cat instead of 200 cells. Both will trigger CEL's so just get the 100 cell cat.
    What you then do is install the Capristo OBD Wizard. No tune, no mods, just a simple dongle that is designed to fix just this. Easy.
    The 100 cell cats will give you the sound, but not the stench. Remember that the exhaust smell you get from running test pipes is not the sweet smell.of race gas. What you get is the pungent stench of old car in the cabin and surrounding your car.


    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  11. weidake

    weidake Rookie

    Jul 16, 2020
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    I have 200 cell installed and cel comes in every 2-4 days after clearing. Sounds a lot better and worth the trouble. Just get a capristo cel deleting tool.
     
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  13. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    I wonder if installing one of those stand-off things (which pulls the O2 sensor end out of the exhaust flow a bit) would totally eliminate the occasional CEL? They also make a 90 degree one. I'm not sure if that would help or hurt matters, but I would think it should help avoid the CEL light as often.

    Ray
     
  14. scott61

    scott61 F1 Rookie

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    Do you live in a state with emissions testing? Would never be able to get a sticker here in MA if cel needs to be cleared that often
     
  15. weidake

    weidake Rookie

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    Sure, annual emission test is required in My state but if you ask around I’m sure you will find a shop that can straighten things out for you.
     
  16. scott61

    scott61 F1 Rookie

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    That use to be the way to do but not anymore. Car has to get plugged in and now our State has cameras at every inspection station and they monitor inspections
     
  17. weidake

    weidake Rookie

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    Even cameras!? That sucks! I am still able to get it done in texas tho
     
  18. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Rookie
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    Thats what is recommended if you get a CEL . May as well install it first up and avoid seeing the CEL.
     
  19. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Is Ferrari using all wideband O2 sensors or are they using narrow band to monitor before and after the cat?

    On my Toyota, for example, the factory ECU monitors the operation of the cat and the AFR via two narrow band O2 sensors. However, in order to make sure the motor is working effectively, I also welded in a wideband sensor downstream of the header collector; this allows me to monitor Lambda in real time and confirm the ECU knows what it's doing :)

    I wonder if Ferrari uses narrow to keep tabs on the cats, but wide to tune the mixture or if they are using a wideband that kicks off a narrow band signal or what the story is.

    Ray
     
  20. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Rookie
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    Why did you use a wide band ? Engines that i built ive always added narrow bands. MoTec ecu's
     
  21. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    They are narrow band sensors. By far the most common in OEM setups.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  22. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Several reasons:

    The main reason [right now] is because the wide band O2 sensor let's me run a gauge on the dashboard that monitors air/fuel ratio in real time as I drive. I have mine configured to read out in Lambda (as opposed to traditional air/fuel ratio). This shows me the stoichiometry of the combusted fuel vs. air and gives me some insight into how effectively the car's ECU is making adjustments based on the feedback it's receiving from the up and downstream narrow band O2 sensors. In other words, I can visually see if all the data the ECU draws upon is having the desired effect as far as air/fuel management. The factory ECU has no means to make use of the data itself, but the gauge is handy to have from a visual standpoint while driving.

    The second reason is because, in the future, I plan on building a turbocharged Toyota 3RZ motor. This will require me to run my own standalone ECU - and download / customize my own fuel management tables - and this non-factory ECU can make use of the wide band sensor.

    Narrow band sensors, as Co-Pilota points out above - are far more common. However, they don't provide nearly as detailed information regarding what is happening when it comes to the exhaust stream.

    Ray
     
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  23. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Rookie
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    The Toyota engine i built was a 3SGE RED TOP BEAMS > INTO A 3SGE RED TOP BEAMS SUPERCHARGED WITH ROTREX. 340 RWKW's. Full MoTec ECU and accessories. I actually put their Mini display into an OEM GPS TOYOTA RADIO / CD :) and LED's in the steering wheel.
     
  24. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    The 3SG is a nice motor. I'm considering building a 3RZ or 3SG myself.

    Ray
     
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  25. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Rookie
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    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  26. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Rookie
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    This 3SGE is a very rare Japan only engine. About 1000 units only. Its call a Red Top. Cast Iron block but has VVTi on intake, Velocity stacks on the plenum and COP's. OEM 150 KW's a few shy of KW;s to the Turbo engine.

    I splurged in building this whole car. Basically every part of the engine and car was brand new, except for the shell. I had an account with Toyota as i had to put over 800 parts on their system so i could buy the new parts. Every screw, 1000's of 5 axis CNC aluminium work. All the forged items. It was my life for 5 years.
     
  27. cinders

    cinders Karting

    May 11, 2020
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    You can buy a device that plugs in to the OBD port and clears the CEL light on the fly. I removed the cats on my Cali-T. Best thing I ever did.

    I'm in the process of buying a 488 and it's the first thing I will do.
     
  28. Senna2394

    Senna2394 Karting

    Sep 12, 2020
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    i only find novitec or capristo that clears the code.
     

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