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458 vs. 488 questions start up questions

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Viperjoe, Mar 26, 2018.

  1. Viperjoe

    Viperjoe Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    On a cold start, My 458 would belch out a considerable amount of oily soot. A few times it even filled my garage with billows of white smoke. I was told that it was a normal condition but sincerely hope that my soon to arrive 488 wont be subject to the same condition. I never really bought off it being normal. Thoughts?
     
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  2. Euroryno

    Euroryno Formula Junior

    Feb 2, 2015
    292
    New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    Speciale spits out what is best described as ‘residual condensation’ and often (not always) leaves a trickle of it in the bottom of the tail pipe after a drive. Best protect whatever is parked immediately behind the car IMO.


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  3. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,920
    Australia
    Just as well you got rid of it ;)
    Thankfully 488 has no such problems.
     
  4. boobernackle

    boobernackle Formula Junior

    May 28, 2016
    913
    What you describe is normal, the longer the car sits, the more white/blue smoke will happen on startup... Porsche 911 owners with horizontally opposed cylinders get it way worse than us. The smell is a giveaway of what it is too.
     
  5. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,920
    Australia
    Not all 911's do that. Mainly just the ones with separator or other issues associated with overly harsh treatment. Was more common in the 997 and mezger engine than the 9A1. Normal is just a polite way of saying it's far too costly to fix under warranty.
     
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  6. boobernackle

    boobernackle Formula Junior

    May 28, 2016
    913
    Exactly, 997 was a HUGE culprit of this and was considered "normal"... who knew a car burning oil at every morning startup was considered "normal"...
     
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  7. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,920
    Australia
    Funny thing is if all these cars produced the same level of smoke then maybe the dealer could get away with it - but problem was many didn't do it at all. This smoke issue is commonly associated to excessive clearances or faulty parts and very occasionally a tech will admit it - BUT only OFF the record. It is regularly excused as "normal" when the engine continues to run and will only become considered "abnormal" when it stops running or, is out of warranty..
     
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  8. Jason B

    Jason B Formula Junior

    Apr 7, 2006
    281
    Hbg, PA
    If it's also 40 degrees out this will always happen, lol.
     
  9. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mar 18, 2014
    3,584
    Europe, but not by much.
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    Nuno
    I’ve noticed the following on my 458:

    - No smoke/condensation of any kind on cold or hot starts.

    - If my previous drive was smooth and uneventful, no high revs, no high speed, no hard accelerations, next cold start will spit considerable black soot from the exhaust, during the first 60/90 seconds of operation.

    - If my previous drive was spirited, hard/full throttle accelerations, high speed (200kph/220kph plus) and upshifts at/near redline, next cold start is smooth and no soot is expelled.

    I don’t own a 488 but I have a good friend who owns one. Test drove the car at an official dealer’s event and drive a 488 seldomly. Never seen soot and/or smoke pouring out of the exhaust on cold or hot starts.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  10. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 12, 2007
    5,007
    My ferrari’s that coughed out the white cloud:
    Italia, Pista, lusso v12

    those that didn’t :
    488 spider, speciale, 458 spider

    strange!
     
  11. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mar 18, 2014
    3,584
    Europe, but not by much.
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    Nuno
    Come to think of it, my 458 coughed a white cloud of condensation, but it was just once and I had left the garage door open for a while, so it was extremely humid and cold. Plus, I hadn’t started the car in more than two months. But it was just that one time.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  12. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,221
    FL
    I have both 458 spider and a 488. The 458 does it more (but as stated its normal)-- most of it is condensation, but if its been sitting a while it will put out white smoke. The 488 does not do it nearly as much.
     
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  13. flifer

    flifer Karting

    Mar 3, 2016
    136
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I have a 488 with valves permanently open and my car spits black soot during cold starts. Never seen smoke though... You definitely want to make sure nothing (or no one) is behind you during a cold start!

    I created a thread on the forum earlier about this and it seems like owners with valves permanently open get this issue more than owners that don't touch the valves https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/exhaust-soot-on-wall.594392/
     
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  14. Mighty Joe

    Mighty Joe Formula 3

    Sep 3, 2010
    1,004
    Atlanta, GA
    Full Name:
    Joe
    That's true, I left my valves stock and no such issue with my 488...
     
  15. BlueFerrari458

    BlueFerrari458 Karting

    Feb 24, 2018
    59
    I have a 458 never had any issues ever as described it sounds like some kind of build up I cannot see it ever seen as normal glad you moved it on


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  16. flifer

    flifer Karting

    Mar 3, 2016
    136
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Also, I just wanted to update that I drive my car like I stole it once it's fully warmed up... So the soot on cold start has nothing to do with babying the throttle as I live in the 5k-8k RPM range as I always drive in a low gear.
     
  17. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,221
    FL
    This makes a lot of sense since my 458 has the valves open and the 488 is stock.
     
  18. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 21, 2006
    5,691
    West Coast
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    Ray Johns
    The exhaust on my 458, even at start up, was so clean you could almost breath it. I used to always back my 458 Italia into the garage backwards and back it right up to my stainless steel tool box, which was right in front of the furnace intake. Never had any smoke or any discharge from the pipes, nor noticed any exhaust smells of any sort in the garage after pulling out. Like I say, it was so clean you could pretty much breath it directly.

    Not sure what's going on with everyone having smoke. Usually blue/white smoke is from oil burning, which can result from leaking valve stem guides and/or seals.

    Ray
     
  19. rob5819

    rob5819 Karting

    Dec 12, 2017
    89
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    Rob Barry
    My 458 has never had smoke of any color at startup, but it definitely throws black soot out. I put a piece of white Styrofoam behind me to keep it from getting on the car I park behind the 458. You can see it in my backup camera:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  20. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mar 18, 2014
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    Europe, but not by much.
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    Nuno
    I’ve always connected the exhaust soot coughing with the fact that the 458 is the first mid engined Ferrari with direct injection, but it can be unrelated.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  21. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,221
    FL
    By any chance do you live in a low humidity location? I live in FL with extra high humidity and I think the condensation inside the exhaust causes a lot of the white smoke and soot (as it washes out the exhaust). Just a theory.
     
  22. Viperjoe

    Viperjoe Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Once, my 458 once filled the garage with white smoke; I was told it was normal. My 488 belches out a considerable amount of soot/water necessitating the use of a cardboard blast shield. Also normal.
     
  23. RaceMX-M3

    RaceMX-M3 Formula Junior
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    Dec 15, 2010
    404
    Frisco, TX
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    Scott
    Never noticed any excessive smoke from my 488 but not something I've paid any attention to.
     
  24. Randyslovis

    Randyslovis Formula Junior
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    Jul 7, 2011
    830
    Atlanta, GA
    Full Name:
    Randall J Slovis
    I posted about this a few years ago. To recap, my wife texted me while I was driving my 458 saying that she thought something was on fire in the garage. Prior to leaving I did leave a garage full of smoke. Let me be very clear: this is not and never was/is CONDENSATION!

    The specifics about the reason for this - if my memory is correct - is that Ferrari designs minute amounts of oil to exist in the combustion chamber on start up. Whether it is for cylinder lubrication or other reason, I cannot recall.

    BUT, occasionally Ferrari's wonderful, always faultless electronics (LOL) will put a little more oil in than is called for. The result is the smoke bomb everyone is taking about. So yes it is a known occurrence in a Ferrari. No it is not terminal or indicative of anything else. If it was your rings, etc, then you would be pushing blue smoke when you take your foot off the accelerator while out driving. Unless this is occurring, just enjoy another wonderful aspect of Ferrari ownership.

    Add it to poor paint quality, warning lights that magically appear and disappear, uneven panel gaps, bad port repairs of bodywork/paint, new cars lost in transit to the dealer, and unavailable parts that let your car sit at the dealer for weeks or longer! Until you have had a few of these, you are not getting the "true" Ferrari experience we all crave.

    best
     
  25. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,920
    Australia
    #25 Shadowfax, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    Please explain how Ferrari "designed" to have small quantities of oil exist in the combustion chamber - if this is the case you would have every engine do it each and every time the engine starts! Unless Ferrari have an electronically controlled oil squirter for each cylinder - which is not the case - then the residual oil left in the cylinders upon shutdown is coming from a fault.

    Possible causes as follow: excessive piston to bore clearance, a fault in the oil control ring (faulty component design - or, inadequate ring tension), excessive valve to guide clearances, or, worn valve stem seals, a fault in the oil separator allowing oil past to enter the intake plenum. These are the most likely causes. It is most certainly not normal for any engine to do this upon start up.

    The 488 blowing out black soot on start up is a different story. In this case the condensation formed by the heating of the cold exhaust system is simply washing a degree of the soot build up on the inside of the pipes out onto the floor. Once the pipes have heated up the condensation disappears and the environment is removed for soot to be expelled in drop form out of the exhaust pipes.
     

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