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412 Dash removal?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Bradm, Mar 2, 2008.

  1. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Is there any 412 owner (or probably 400 owners also) that have removed the dash and can offer a step by step description of how it is done?

    Many, if not most, of the 365/400/412 series that I have seen have suffered from the dreaded leather shrinkage on the dash. My 365 GT4 2+2 had it, my current 412 has it, and if yours hasn't got it now, its either been replaced or likely to have it in the future.

    I know other models have the same problem, but the dashs are mounted differently, so their dash removal proceedures are no help. My dash is coming out to be recovered, but if I can get any help from one who's already done it, it'll make the job much easier and be greatly appreciated! I have the parts manuals, workshop manual, and owner's manual but they're not much help.
     
  2. b3tech

    b3tech Karting

    Apr 17, 2007
    100
    Los Gatos CA
    Full Name:
    Boyd Bowdish
    Bradm, doing this task is not recommended unless you have done it before or have someone with experience helping. It's a minimum of a two person job. There are few tasks I have taken on that requires the car goes to "the shop". This would be one of them. Sorry for being negative, but...... And if you are re-doing a 365 GT/4, then the dash needs to be redone in the mouse hair like in the C/4 or the other cars of the era. If yours is leather, it not original.
     
  3. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Boyd, Thanks for your recommendation and you are, of course, correct in pointing out that the dash material on the C4's and 365 GT4 2+2's was mousehide rather than leather, but, unfortunately, it did not reduce the propensity for dash material shrinkage and it was, and continues to be, a problem for owners, whether mousehide or leather (on the later models).

    I appreciate your advice, but I have an expert upholsterer to do the actual re-covering, and I am stubborn enough to do the removal and replacement of the dash itself. I have plenty of time, good help and a well-equipped shop, so I will be removing the dash of my 412, hopefully with a little more information than I have at present.
     
  4. ricar116

    ricar116 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
    382
    Bolivar, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Rick Carr
    I removed mine by myself on my 365GT4/2+2. Simon Campbell of the 400i registry e-mailed me some step by steps. You can contact him through the registry though not very active. Or you can contact him through the GTC4 website. I will look through my file and see if I can find mine. Basically on mine you start at the rear of the console and work your way forward.
    Rick
     
  5. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Thanks, Rick. I had actually seen the photos of Simon's 400 on the register site with some very good shots of the interior with the dash removed. It appears from these shots that the center of the console doesn't have to be removed nor does the windshield have to be removed to get the dash out. It appears that possibly even the steering wheel doesn't have to be removed.

    All of this is good news, and I will try to reach Simon to see if he may be able to provide more details. If you happen to find your copy of the notes that would be great too. I'm not proud and I accept help from any quarter. I have 11 Italian cars, (10 Alfas) 2 MG-TF's and 5 Lambretta scooters, so I obviously: 1) need a lot of help and 2) am not intimidated by Italian vehicles.

    I'm convinced that it doesn't have to be a spirit-crushing experience, and suspect that its like the old joke about the ability to walk on water, i.e., it helps to know where the stones are! I'm just trying to find out where the stones are in the 412 dash removal proceedure.
     
  6. ricar116

    ricar116 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
    382
    Bolivar, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Rick Carr
    Brad,
    Found them will scan and post tomorrow at work.
    Rick
     
  7. ricar116

    ricar116 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
    382
    Bolivar, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Rick Carr
    I can't get the scan to resize for a post. I will retype, but I will be busy today probably get it this evening.
     
  8. ricar116

    ricar116 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
    382
    Bolivar, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Rick Carr
    #8 ricar116, Mar 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Rick,
    Many thanks man! That is exactly what I (and many others) needed. I sent a PM to Simon yesterday, so I'll PM him back that you were able to find the original email so he won't have to search for it.

    I'll tackle the dash this weekend and try to get some more photos, particularly of anything that is peculiar to the 412. It's such a common problem that I'm sure many will benefit from the info you and Simon provided. This is a perfect example of why F-Chat is such a great resource!

    Bradm
     
  10. gordon

    gordon Karting

    Oct 31, 2003
    52
    Paris
    Hello everybody !

    Brad, I will be very interested in your experience as it's been a loing time i wanted to do that on mine and feel like i am going to do it soon.

    Another question, I need to repair my shift stick (a bad garagist broke it and it is not attached to the gearbox anymore) and for that i need to take the central console off. Is there a procedure somewhere like for the dashboard.

    Thanks for your help.

    Jean
     
  11. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Hi Gordon,

    First, I'm pleased to report that the dash has been successfully removed and I'm now waiting for the new leather to arrive from Bill Hirsch. While not the two-man, "don't even think about it" ordeal one poster suggested it would be, it was also not the "just 3 or 4 screws holding it in, not difficult, 60 to 90 minutes project reported by Simon. At least not on my 412.

    It took me 2 nights, about 4 hours per night to extract the dash, the vent strip that rests on the dash against the windshield, and the speedometer/tachometer housing, as all 3 of these had leather shrinkage and will all need recovering. I did take my time as I would STRONGLY recommend to anyone undertaking this, as anything you break in the process is likely made of unobtanium. On the plus side, I took the time to photograph every step (I think) of the process, to show literally the location of every fastener removed. I wound up with with just over 100 photos, so that should give you an idea that it is definitely do-able, but not something you would probably want to do "just for fun".

    I would not try to post 100 photos on the site, but in a couple of weeks I'll have a chance to notate the photos with comments and I'll be happy to send a write-up. including all photos, to anyone who would like to have a copy for their use.

    I was pleased to find that the center console did not have to be removed nor did the steering wheel have to be removed in order to remove the dash.

    Although I didn't have to remove the console, I'd suggest doing a search for "console remove" and I think you'll find several threads that cover console removal in 308's, Mondials, 348's and TR's, none of which are exactly like the 400/412, but should give you a good start toward how to likely remove the console in your car. It appears that it is mostly straight-forward, starting with looking for screws under the ash tray and at the rear of the console.

    I can confirm that the dash is bolted to the center console in the back two corners at the point that the dash meets the console, behind the A/C vent in the center of the 412 console. The instrument cluster (4 gauges) and the A/C louver unit must both come out to get to these 2 very well-concealed bolts. Perhaps some other F-chatters have done the console removal and can give you more details on that.
     
  12. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,158
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    Bradm,
    A huge thanks for your info/greatly appreciated by all I'm sure, have you considered Photobucket to post your pix?
    Bruce
     
  13. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Thanks Bruce, That's a really good idea. I haven't used it before but I'll check it out.

    Brad
     
  14. 3wings

    3wings Karting

    Apr 7, 2008
    139
    South Africa
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Hi Brad

    Glad the dash removal worked out because I'm about to embark on the same route ! Except mine's going to be more insane...here's why.
    I've recently bought a 1975 365 GT4 2+2 with only 28,000 miles on the clock. Its like new, the bodywork is unmarked with no rust, inside the leather still has that wonderful soft feel and luxurious smell, the carpets are untouched, the dash leather hasn't shrunk but.....
    The car is a LHD and I'm about to switch it to RHD, at least that's the plan!
    The under-the-hood stuff I'm wisely leaving to the experts in the shop but the interior work I want to do myself.
    I already have a RHD dash and centre console from a 1979 400i, complete with instrument cluster etc. (in fact I've got almost the entire 400 except the engine, so stacks and stacks of spares).
    I've read about your project and would be very grateful to receive any encouraging advice and photos that you can share with me.
    Kind regards

    Mike

    PS: Have you tried Google's picasa web ? Its another way to communicate large photo-files that's easy and free !
     
  15. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Hi Mike,

    Congrats on the 365GT4 2+2 with only 28K! Sounds like a real find. My first F-car was a 365 GT4 2+2 (silver with black) and was my pride and joy for 5 years with no problems (other than recurring rust and a VERY heavy clutch). You are far more ambitious than I with the changeover from LHD to RHD, but it sounds like you have all the parts needed. I can see no reason it should not be succesful, and you have all our best wishes with it. Please take some pictures and post so we can appreciate your unique experience.

    By the way, you will now be inundated with parts requests from a bunch of 400 guys looking for spares!

    I had to delay my project this weekend in order to prepare income tax returns (a quaint little annual ritual we enjoy here in the U.S.) but I'll try to get the photos marked up, notated, and posted on one of the photo posting sites ASAP and I'll post the address as soon as its ready.

    Cheers!

    Brad
     
  16. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 23, 2006
    10,093
    GMT -6
    Full Name:
    Dave
    :eek:
    :eek:
    You have a lot more guts than I do!
     
  17. 3wings

    3wings Karting

    Apr 7, 2008
    139
    South Africa
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Hi Dave

    Thanks for the encouragement !!

    I know its an insane project, I should really just let it be and get used to driving it here on the 'wrong' side of the road but I'm going to give it a go and will keep the site posted with an account and images of how I get on...the LHD dash will ultimately be for sale (along with my marriage vows if I'm not careful) so I might be able to recoup some of the expenditure for the engine removal etc.

    I see you're in the wine business.......I live in the Helderberg, home of so many wonderful South African wines, about 15miles from Stellenbosch !

    best regards

    Mike
     
  18. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
  19. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,191
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Brad
    Your pictures and description were very useful. You can ignore my PM since my dash is now out. My time for extraction was very similar to yours: about 2 hours one day and 4+ hours the next. I think I spent one hour just trying to extract the two side vents without breaking them. The center one was not too easy either but a feeler gauge helped with that one.

    My reason for reviving this post is to note some differences between removing my 400i dash and Brad's 412.

    The things that were easier:
    - I did not need to remove the two triangle pieces on the side of the dash next to the door seal
    - Likewise the 'kick panels' on both sides did not need to be removed; no bolts behind them.
    - No tweeters in the 400i, instead there is a plastic box for cassettes, which we use for sunglasses. It pulls out with only a wing nut used to hold in the funky Aluminum tab that might hold it in. On my left side the US converter put the brake and seat belt warning lights in the top of that box but it came out easily.

    Thing that was a LOT tougher:
    - Besides the two bolts at the top of the AC evaporator (see comment below), there was a very visible large Phillip's head bolt on the left side behind the gauges. It was easy to remove, but it held a bracket that extends from the top of the dash down about 5-6". This makes final removal of the dash with all bolts undone, quite a "stretch". Dash is trapped by the windshield in front, the console to the back, the instrument binnacle support to the left (plus the emergency light metal support, which nearly got de-riveted) and the AC system trapping the bracket from moving to the right. Well it is out, but with some pain by all parties. I plan to unbolt but not disconnect the console for the re-entry process. This should give some additional vertical and rearward give.

    The two bolts above the AC that everyone talks about are about three times longer than they need to be. They are fixed into the dash. They are long enough that a short socket or nut driver does not work, and a deep socket does not fit in the space. Their added length makes them prime weapons to tear up the console if not first removed. So I have cut them short by about 1/3" and cleaned the threads where cut. I wanted to cut more but every bit will help and there is no down side to having them shorter. Does PF build traps like this deliberately? I think so.

    Ken
     
  20. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,158
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    A big thanks Ken for bringing this thread alive again as I missed this whole thing while out of the country during the spring months (disconnected from the virtual world); & for the differentiation between the 400i & the 412.

    & a huge thanks Brad for not only documenting the whole R & R process even though for your reference (smart!) but for the time & effort it took to shop the photos & bringing it to our table.

    ?????? Will the photos always remain on the photobucket site (for future reference) or should the files be copied in the event of discontinuance??

    Again, thanks to the 2 of you, this is 'some' resource!
    Bruce
     
  21. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,191
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    #21 SouthJersey400i, Nov 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am posting a photo of the rear of the dash showing the bracket that I describe as the culprit for making final dash removal difficult for a 400i. It is on the left side opposite of the flat plate for the emergency light, but actually behind the center instrument cluster.

    Brad, I did not see such a piece on your cleaned up dash. Right?
    Ken
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Hi Ken,

    Since the dash project is completed and successfully back in place I can't do a close examination of the underside to confirm my suspicions. I can tell you that the vertical member which is obvious in your photograph was not present on my dash, but I suspect that it may have been originally, and may have been removed in an earlier dash removal by the first owner. He owned a Honda dealership in southern CA. and presumably had a staff of mechanics in his employ who maintained his collection of cars (reported to number 65+ ). I wouldn't be at all surprised if it presented the problems you outlined for the mechanic (or perhaps upholstery shop) to have decided to shorten or "remove" it to facilitate the process.

    I have also heard reports of the leather shrinkage problem being so bad on the 400 series and the TRs that some dealers were having to remove and either "re-stretch" or replace the leather on brand new cars before they were delivered to the new owners. The dealers reportedly had to do so many that they became so proficient at the process they could perform it in just a few hours. My car was originally imported by Ferrari of Houston and I spoke to their service mgr. and he confirmed that it was a common problem.

    Unfortunately, the original owner has passed away so we'll never know exactly what may have happened, but I'm fairly comfortable that the dash is held in place sufficiently by all the other bolts so its not likely to "fly off" even without the vertical piece. I just went to the photo bucket website and looked closely at the last 2 or 3 photos of the dash underside and I think you can see where the angle may have once been. Anyway, I don't plan on removing the photos from photobucket and I'm glad you were able to perservere.

    Best regards,
    Brad
     
  23. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,191
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Brad and others,

    Maybe someone else can weigh in on this. All someone has to do is remove the instrument cluster and look back to the left. Do you have a large Phillips head bolt visible. The bracket in my picture sits behind part of the console frame and you may not see it but the bolt should be easily visible. I like the idea of cutting it off and risking damage to the console or my fresh covered dash. I have already cut the corners off the plate for the emergency light. Oh my God, please don't tell the concourse judges!!

    I dropped off the parts at my upholstery shop today and I selected the best match leather. The color is called 'black ink' and it is is in the portfolio from another manufacture starting with the letter 'F'. If Ferrari supplied leather needed to be stretched before delivery of new cars, I think avoiding 'original' leather is a good plan.

    I hope to be in the re-assembly process for Christmas.

    Ken
     
  24. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,191
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    #24 SouthJersey400i, Jan 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Brad
    I am reviving this thread AGAIN. I have my recovered dash back from the shop and I am posting two pics of the bracket that did not appear in your pictures. This bracket makes it very difficult to remove the dash without removing the console first. Here is the problem: the rack of the windshield forces you to lift the dash to the rear, but the bracket forces you to lift it straight up until the bracket clears the console.

    Brad believes that this bracket may have been cut off previously from his dash as it does not appear in his pictures. I have not yet decided to cut it off or not. It is a three dimensional bracket and does not bend in any direction. I believe its function is not to hold the dash but rather to add stability to the console. Brad has proven that it is not needed and that it can be removed without being noticed. It is too cold even in my heated garage to try it this weekend, so I will get to it next week.
    Ken
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
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  25. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,191
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Surprisingly the dash slipped right in with the bracket on it! I was anticipating a lot of push and pull but it went in with very little effort. Now to finish rest of assembly......
    Ken
     

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