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365 motor assy complete with transmission

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by bundas, Sep 5, 2015.

  1. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 23, 2006
    11,215
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    Dave
    Jesus what a train wreck!

    We've had this conversation in private many times before. I've told you before in these kind of situations the very first thing you do is define what your ultimate goal is. You have to decide what a "win" looks like. Then BEFORE you do anything you ask yourself, "Does what I'm about to do/say get me closer to my goal?" All these other guys are here because they are passionate about our hobby. You are here because this is your business. As I have told you in the past because this is your business you are held to a different standard. Your goal in these kind of situations is to check your ego and find a way to turn a disgruntled customer into one that sings your praises. THAT is what a "win" looks like, period.

    Although I've tried to tell you before it appears that this fact is still unbeknownst to you; these kind of situations cost you more money in lost revenue than you could ever imagine due to the way you react here in public. I swear my new business venture is your new part-time CEO. I'm going to charge you 10g's a month. If you do what I say I'll save/generate 20 a month. My first action? Take away your internet access so you can't continue to make antagonistic comments and argue in public. My second? Never let you talk to a customer again. My third? Require written estimates, invioces, and customer expectations. 4th? To project an image of a humble, experienced, and compassionate company that legitimately puts its customers first. I'll save you a ton and turn your reputation around so fast it'll make your head spin.
     
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  3. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
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    brett swaykoski
    Dave, you seem far more upset about it than anybody else... please, just relax...my business is not 'underwritten' by internet blogs, my man...so, again, relax.

    I have a deep appreciation for what Rob set out to do and what he created, but I think even he gets tired sometimes of what happens with what he created.

    Unlike others, if you check, I've never started a thread here to shamelessly promote our work... if my customer wants to, so be it... but I didn't need to do that for my business.

    Again, I urge you to relax... you really don't need to get worked up by this...I appreciate it, but it's not necessary.

    As for business advice, you have my ear any time you choose to call me.

    Thanks.
     
  4. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 23, 2006
    11,215
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    Dave
    I'm only upset for you Brett. This situation doesn't affect me even a little. We've talked numerous times and you seem like a decent guy. I'm upset for you. You continue to shoot yourself in the foot in situations like this and it pains me, for your sake, to see that happen.
     
  5. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    No sale dude, shop it somewhere else...for your own good... everyone knows what your end game is here... goodbye.
     
  6. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
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    brett swaykoski
    I understand Dave...thank you.
     
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  8. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
  9. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
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    mitchell barnes
    what is wrong with my 365 motor. the damn thing is full of grey hair.
     
  10. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,884
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Thread aside..but that is friggin funny..sorry but that made my night. Can't stop laughing..
     
  11. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    mitchell barnes
    try Mitchell if you want to know what upset is. but I am waiting for an answer as to why i have a problem I do not know. but guess a week to get the motor out and tear it down. then I will post the results. until then I have no clue. the motor never ran properly . bucked, missed and smoked, running rich changed jets and it still ran like crap. so let's all wait. I am for that. what really bothers me some.
    Brett knocking me for telling what I had problems with. and pointing out that because i am old and sick means i do not know nor cannot make a clear decision. sad to act that way toward customer.. In my business(40 years), first rule. customer right, second rule, customer right. there were times when that was not true. I just took care of the problem. and was too busy the next time or charge a little extra every time. the only time, once I ran a customer off. they were gypsy blacktop con artist. a very interesting group. and Brett, you pointed out a QP3. I gave you an education. you had no idea that the customer brought in the rarest of all. only five make for the middle east, Royals. I told you what to offer, $5,000. you offered , $6,000. the customer was not interested IN selling. so I told you to stop. you paint a bad picture of me. disgusting


    QP35,
     
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  13. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
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    mitchell barnes
    the world is a great place to live. at least the best I have found. I am feeling great tonight. had dinner with my sweetie pie. pinto beans and greens at Cracker Barrel(with hot sauce and onions, we are not talking to each other.) shop working on my 1962 Chrysler 300. last part I needed came in today. another shop working on a LaForza that I purchased for my sister to drive this winter. then needed a front axle, I had an extra. another shop working on my Bitter SC gave me a list of parts. down to finding brakes. another shop will have all the 90' Maserati spyder done this week. they already fixed the Maserati 430. another shop is working on my other LaForza, my winter driver. keeping Ky. green all by myself. I know this thread is about a motor. but guys I feel so good I just had to share. besides all this my garage is finally making progress after a year and a half.
     
  14. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    The problem is that you've been driving on 10 cylinders from the moment you had the plugs changed immediately after delivery.


    Mitchell Barnes
    To gtbrettski@rogers.com

    Sat, Aug 29 9:28am

    On the car. Remember spark plugs had to be changed because Will pumped the gas. Well two plugs had no gap��. The car is at a shop on Ind. that is where the spark plug issue was discovered. They started Friday. Compression 145-170. All over the map. They hear a noise in the timing chain area that needs checking. Throttle linkage will only open 3/4's. I will know more in less than 30 days. And will let you know



    My response...


    gtbrettski@rogers.com
    to mitchell barnes

    Sat, Aug 29 10:07am


    So you've been running on 10 cylinders all this time ???
    So you've been washing down 2 cylinders all this time ???
    For Christ sake…


    NO WONDER IT HAD A ROUGH IDLE !!!
    NO WONDER IT HAD UNBURNT FUEL IGNITING IN THE EXHAUST AND FLAMING OUT OF THE TAIL PIPES !!!


    I'll be surprised if there isn't some damage to the rings/cylinder…maybe not, but it isn't good, obviously.
    That motor had 185-190 psi all around before it shipped.
    I sincerely hope that you haven't damaged that motor.


    Noise from the chain area means that you need to adjust… takes 5 minutes.


    Can't comment on the throttle linkage issue…other than that I think it's bull****…but, whatever.


    You should have let us finish the car with the proper amount of road testing after the snow cleared.


    Patience is a virtue…
     
  15. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    Shame on you. I've done no such thing. Working with you through your various challenges was a challenge for us as well... that's what I said... no more, no less.

    I have no idea why you've started this and why you continue to lie throughout.

    Regardless, I won't be bullied and I won't back down.


    (Sorry Dave...I can't... it's just not who I am.)
     
  16. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
    lexington ky usa
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    mitchell barnes
    Not enough time. Really. B S
     
  17. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    GRAN TURISMO AUTO SERVICE LTD.
    SALES, SERVICE AND RESTORATION GST#819714312
    Invoice
    119 Wellington St. E
    Alliston, ON, L9R 1G7
    Phone / Fax 705.435.1990
    Ferrari and Maserati - Service and Maintenance
    INVOICE #PDF0001_2014 Oct 15/2014
    Mitchell Barnes, Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    1980 Maserati Merak SS
    DESCRIPTION
    Labour/Parts
    RATE QTY Total
    Complete control arm bushing set - includes 4 front shock bushings.
    Part 725 1.0 $725.00
    Carb rebuild kits - includes shipping 190 1.0 $190.00
    Tires Part 175 4.0 $700.00
    Battery Part 155 1.0 $155.00
    Ignition switch - includes $49 Fedex Part 219 1.0 $219.00
    Window gears(2) - includes $41 Fedex Part 137 1.0 $137.00
    Bonnet struts - includes $40 UPS Part 111.72 1.0 $111.72
    Redline Synthetic Gear oil Part 124 1.0 $124.00
    Header coating Part 225 2.0 $450.00
    Front seat and dash upholstery Part 10600 1.0 $10,600.00
    Carline Automotive Invoice - Repairs to headers and 4 wheel alignment
    Part 351.69 1.0 $351.69
    CV Shaft Boot kits Part 36.87 4.0 $147.48
    MIE Invoice - Jan/2015 - 4 rear shock bushings, cam cover gaskets, shipping.
    Part 369.11 1.0 $369.11
    MIE Invoice - Jan/2015 - Drop link bushings, rear brake pad set, oil pressure sending unit w/thread adapter, air filter, oil filler cap, shift link bushing set, shipping.
    Part 694.13 1.0 $694.13
    NGK 7832 Part 5.56 6.0 $33.36
    MIE Invoice - Mar/2015 - Air filter housing nut(4), DCNF gasket(6), 331/12-2/38 nut, shipping.
    Part 97.9 1.0 $97.90
    Castrol motor oil Part 63 1.0 $63.00
    $0.00
    2014 Labour
    June 11 - Leo Labour 65 5.0 $325.00
    June 11 - Brett Labour 65 5.0 $325.00
    June 12 - Leo Labour 65 3.0 $195.00
    June 12 - Brett Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    July 13 - Leo Drop off oil sample Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Oct 02 - Leo Labour 65 8.0 $520.00
    Oct 03 - Leo Labour 65 8.0 $520.00
    Oct 03 - Scott Labour 65 2.0 $130.00
    Oct 06 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Oct 06 - Scott Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Oct 07 - Leo Labour 65 5.5 $357.50
    Oct 07 - Brett Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Oct 21 - Leo Labour 65 4.5 $292.50
    Oct 21 - Brett Labour 65 4.5 $292.50
    Oct 24 - Leo Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Oct 24 - Scott Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Oct 28 - Leo Labour 65 7.5 $487.50
    Oct 28 - Brett Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Oct 30 - Leo Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Oct 31 - Leo Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Nov 03 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Dec 03 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Dec 03 - Scott Labour 65 8.0 $520.00
    Dec 04 - Leo Labour 65 5.0 $325.00
    Dec 04 - Scott Labour 65 6.5 $422.50
    Dec 05 - Leo Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Dec 08 - Leo Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Dec 08 - Scott Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Dec 10 - Leo Labour 65 5.5 $357.50
    Dec 11 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Dec 15 - Leo Labour 65 5.0 $325.00
    Dec 15 - Scott Labour 65 6.5 $422.50
    Dec 16 - Leo Labour 65 5.5 $357.50
    Dec 16 - Scott Labour 65 7.0 $455.00
    Dec 18 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Dec 18 - Scott Labour 65 7.0 $455.00
    Dec 29 - Scott Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Dec 29 - Brett Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Dec 30 - Scott Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Dec 30 - Brett Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    2015 Labour
    Jan 07 - Scott Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Jan 09 - Scott Labour 65 5.0 $325.00
    Jan 12 - Scott Labour 65 5.5 $357.50
    Jan 12 - Leo Labour 65 7.0 $455.00
    Jan 13 - Scott Labour 65 5.5 $357.50
    Jan 13 - Leo Labour 65 7.0 $455.00
    Jan 14 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Jan 15 - Scott Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Jan 15 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Mar 12 - Scott Labour 65 2.0 $130.00
    Mar 16 - Scott Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    Mar 16 - Leo Labour 65 3.5 $227.50
    Mar 17 - Scott Labour 65 2.5 $162.50
    Mar 17 - Leo Labour 65 3.0 $195.00
    May 04 - Leo Labour 65 4.5 $292.50
    May 05 - Leo Labour 65 8.0 $520.00
    May 06 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    May 13 - Leo Labour 65 3.0 $195.00
    May 14 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    May 19 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    May 20 - Leo Labour 65 3.0 $195.00
    May 21 - Leo Labour 65 4.0 $260.00
    May 21 - Scott Labour 65 1.5 $97.50
    Total Parts $15,168.39
    Total Labour $17,810.00
    Subtotal $32,978.39

    Total $32,978.39
     
  18. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
    lexington ky usa
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    mitchell barnes
    You ask for money and I sent it.
     
  19. MITYRARE

    MITYRARE F1 Rookie

    May 21, 2008
    2,611
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    Paul
    Why am I included in a picture response? I was "after" nothing. I just feel that it was inappropriate to call anyone's comment "stupid". As a businessperson, calling any other shop owner's comments as "stupid" is immature and unprofessional.



     
  20. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 5, 2002
    28,594
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    There are a lot of "master mechanics" out there who botch an engine job from time to time. They can have great reputations and maybe the botch happens through no fault of their own or through inattention, laziness, shortcutting a procedure or other issue. The key is what does that master mechanic do after the customer points out that there is a problem?

    Many years ago I was running a Turner in vintage sports car racing and needed to have an engine built. Some of you may know that most Turners used a BMC A 948 cc engine, which is the heart of an Austin Healey Sprite and other cars of the era.

    I had an engine builder with a strong reputation in building BMC 948s build up a race engine me and I took it to a weekend event at Lime Rock to break it in. In the very first warm up session, the oil pressure suddenly dropped from about 85 psi to 25 psi and I so I brought it in right away. The shop owner was very apologetic that my weekend was over before it began and promised to get the engine fixed in time for the next event a few weeks later.

    The next event was at Mont Tremblant, a much longer tow and a more expensive weekend. Guess what? Same loss of oil pressure in the first easy session on the track. Another entire weekend paid for but watched as a spectator. More apologies and more promises from the shop owner and back it went.

    Next stop was at NHIS in New Hampshire and, wouldn't you know it, the same damn thing happened with the oil pressure. At this point I was beyond apoplectic with anger at the shop owner and his "master engine builder". Another shop owner racing an Elva Courier felt bad for me and told me that he would tear the engine apart for free just so we could figure out went wrong.

    What he found inside that "master engine builder's" engine was a horror show that included crank journals ground too much and other problems. It was clear that the "master engine builder" could have discovered these issues if he had actually taken the time to tear apart the engine and do it right, but he obviously was shortcutting that process with quick fixes that he hoped would work. We ended up basically discarding the bulk of the engine and started fresh with a new (old, never raced) block, a crank, Carillo rods, new pistons, etc. etc. All for the same money that I had spent on the first engine.

    That engine lasted several seasons of spirited racing. The first engine builder is still in business although the number of dissatisfied customers seems to be growing.

    Engines are complicated machines and a lot can go wrong with seemingly minor errors or mistakes.
     
  21. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    mitchell barnes
    I ran a Turner 1959-62. SCCA F/G class along with Jimmy Rowe. he had the Alexander Head. both were 948cc. a great car. one engine build would last 6 weekends. great car. I sat and used a Dremel. polished every moving part to mirror finish. reliable and cheap to run. cost about $65 a weekend. after that I built and ran a AC Bristol. had a little one man garage that put me through college working on any import that came in the door.
     
  22. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    mitchell barnes
    Merak has big leak after an overnight sit. second trip out. damn. antifreeze as far as I can tell. I did not have the hart or energy to look. probably a fitting or hose. and it did soo good. runs/ran great.
     
  23. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    There was a previous 'repair' in the middle of the long coolant pipe that runs down the center of the car...a short hose and two clamps that should not be there..we never saw any fluid leak and we did snug the clamps, but check there first.
     
  24. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
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    mitchell barnes
    Will tomorrow
     
  25. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant Owner

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,694
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    Newman
    #147 Newman, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I commented on this picture below earlier in the thread and since then Ive had a few people ask me whats scary about it. There are a few errors taking place here that shows a lack of understanding and engine building experience. Basically the picture is an example of exactly how not to machine cylinder bores especially when the liner is removable but theres one step that applies to all engines regardless of the style of cylinder.


    To properly rebuild a V8 like this one the liners must be removed, cleaned and inspected as well as the block where the liners seat and seal to keep coolant from mixing with the oil later down the road. Once cleaned you would install new O-rings then re-install the liners which at this time just drop in by hand now that years of corrosion and scale have been removed from the coolant jacket side of the liners. Now you would install a used head gasket and a torque plate which in this case serves two purposes. Because the liners were removed and cleaned they wont stay in place with a hone passing up and down the liner, they would get pulled out of the block and get damaged in a matter of seconds. Secondly the liners are not under compression as they would be with a cylinder head installed and in use so the accuracy of the machining is compromised when you dont duplicate this condition during machining. A torque plate actually changes the shape of the liner to the point that after machining and removal, the liner is not round by about .0015 which is a lot if your piston to wall clearance spec is .003" in a round hole. Not round to the point that a piston is tighter than spec in one position and loose 90 degrees away but when the engine is assembled and the heads are installed its round again. This is a standard engine building technique to insure that the engine will last a long long time and make more power than one that skipped this step. Sure it'll run with out of round liners or taper but will it last? Not as long as it should. It costs more but I had plates made for the 8 and 12 cylinder cars as well as the dino v6 but it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling so I dont wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat.

    So what im saying about the engine in the photo is the liners were not removed and inspected, o-rings were not changed and corrosion was not removed otherwise the first liner that was touched with that hone would have flown out and hit someone in the head. So the method of liner retention in this case is corrosion thanks to a few skipped steps for whatever reason. Secondly the lack of a torque plate means they're round until the head gets bolted on. If they're taken out after machining to be cleaned and re-installed they wont be round anymore on the bench or once assembled. I spent countless hours testing liners in different blocks before and after cleaning and different positions within the same block and the dimensions changed every time - very frustrating but educational. I figured out how to get it consistent and get repeatable measurements so my pistons are happy. The next 2 photos are of a flat 12 boxer engine I built 6 years ago with my torque plate installed to double check the liners.
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  26. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    I made torque plates for the Merak that the two dumb shops were supposed to use. Since they did not clean out the oil passages who knows what they really did. On the Al block Maserati V6 as well as the 8 any good machine shop would pull the liners. Add an other groove 3/8" above the existing one and put a second ring in. That was supposed to have been done on mine. The old Al. Blocks were really bad about leaking. Good spot Newman
     
  27. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
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    mitchell barnes
    Motor is out of the car and stripped. Sitting in an engine stand. Disassembly started. I discussion with the shop. John, owner wanted to see the invoice to help him understand what went in the build. At this rate I should have an answer by Wed. Not taking two years(dig😉). Brett do your guys want all the grey hair back😂
     
  28. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    mitchell barnes
    #150 bundas, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Would anyone here pay $47,000 for this knowing it's twin is crap😳😁😩😡. Photo credit. Grandturismoauto Alliston😡 Beautiful appearance. Great conversation center peice under a coffee table😢
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