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2nd gear won't shift until car warms up

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by tradervice, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. tradervice

    tradervice Rookie

    May 26, 2014
    2
    Second gear won't engage until car warms up a bit. Is this common 1986 Mondial?
     
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  2. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 31, 2006
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    Are you serious? It's almost unbelievable that you asked. ;)

    Yes, it's completely "normal".
     
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  3. Subito Grigio

    Subito Grigio Karting

    Jun 2, 2009
    193
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  4. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    Dec 19, 2004
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    SF
    Even though my 328 and the two other Ferraris I was fortunate to own for many years had no issues shifting into second cold I never did it. It was just my way of being good to my transmission.

    My cold start process was when water temp came up to first hash mark I could drive it but I did not shift into 2nd until the oil temperature gauge came up.
     
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  5. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Nov 1, 2005
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    Second gear issues til warm are fairly rountinely reported on for the Mondial, 308/28's, and Testarossas. But my 1988 Mondial 3.2 has never had the problem, although second gear was more "ratchety" when cold when using the OEM specified 75W90 gear oil. Using Redline MTL seems to be the fluid that works best on the transmissions that are otherwise a bit balky. I find MTL gives me excellent shifts, and I drive the car down to the edge of the winter here at freezing temperatures. Change it every two years. The MTL is an 80 weight oil, but there are many knowledgeable advocates for MTL in these transmissions even thought it is not the OEM spec viscosity.

    While some say 2nd gear shift issues are normal, and it wasindeed reported on the cars in road tests even when the cars were new, it can also be caused by worn "silent blocs" and the shifter linkage out of alignment, which appears to be very challanging to align correctly. Since the problem is not evident in all cars, it must be some combination of design and alignment, and the fluid used as the factors.

    So give it a go with some new Redline MTL and see if that helps.
     
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  6. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
    2,616
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    Welcome to the wonders of the mondial
     
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  7. M. Brandon Motorcars

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    Sep 4, 2007
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    Completely normal. Redline MTL or Redline 75W90 NS (note the NS) helps tremendously, but it seems that some are more prone than others.
     
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  8. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie
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    May 25, 2013
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    Almost every '80-'90 has this characteristic. For the 3x8 and the Mondial you can fix this when you do a transmission rebuild. I always have wondered why Ferrari didn't do this MOD since the issue is there already since the Dino.

    Anyway you have your answer from almost everyone here :) It's not a problem. It's a characteristic! Perhaps this is why Ferrari didn't do the MOD ;)
     
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  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    I would not define it as normal. My 328 with the same trans shifts like butter stone cold. Gear oils being used in most today have antiwear additives that inhibit syncro action. Also an issue like mal adjustment or worn bushings make it a more profound problem.

    I'd try the oils noted in M. Brandons post and see how it is then look into the other items I mentioned.
     
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  10. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    Agreed, when I replaced my gear assembly the problem went away. Before that switched to redline which seemed to help a bit. There is a tech article about drilling a small hole, what are your thoughts on that? thanks for your time Rifledriver, I always appreciate your $0.02
     
  11. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    I do this as well, I wait until oil hits first hash mark to go over 4k
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Only really applies to the very early V8's. The rest it makes no difference. Ferrari figured out the problem very early and put a groove in the shaft to let the oil out. Drilling a hole is redundant and about 40 years too late.
     
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  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    My warm up includes letting the starter gear stop moving before I let the clutch out and I'm in 3rd gear before the stop sign 400 feet away.
     
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  14. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
    2,616
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    Greeting, long time no see
     
  15. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    7,908
    New England/FL
    On the other hand when I bought by 85 308 QV new the sales person told me that 2nd gear would be difficult or impossible to get until warmed up. And so it was. So the gear oil additives argument would seem to fail. Then there was the "fix" published in Prancing Horse back in the late 80s or early 90s, I can not recall the exact date. Today, after 32k miles, 2nd is better when cold but still notchie until warm.

    Question: Why would gear oil temp be a factor if it's additives related?
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #16 Rifledriver, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019

    The fix published in Prancing Horse was BS. Ferrari ground a groove in the shafts in all but the very early gear boxes making a hole to allow oil to escape redundant.

    Ferrari NA was suggesting to the dealers to use an oil very high in sulpher which is very counterproductive to the operation of the syncros based only on the manufacturers claim their oil was the best thing since sliced bread. It was not official but because at the time Ferrari was not in the business of supplying oil and Agip was nearly impossible to get here. A thinner oil will always make one shift better so getting hot and shifting better is very understandable. Wouldn't matter if it was gear oil, motor oil or ATF, has nothing to do with additives. Especially with the iron ZF syncros they used in those.

    As I have said, our 328 with exactly the same transmission you have shifts like butter, hot or cold and all that has been done to it is a few oil seals over the years. If you want for some reason to think it needs to shift badly it's OK with me.
     
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  17. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    :confused: ???
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Good work disassociating them from their context, or do you have that much trouble with the English language?
     
  19. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    What are your thoughts on Pennzoil Synchromesh? There's loads of internet chatter on this and , after doing a lot of research, I even tried it in my 3.2 Mondial. Amazing is all I can say. However, not having any long term data made me chicken out, and I went back to Mobil 1.
     
  20. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    Hello John, here is the article you speak you mentioned. Since I myself have not done this, I don't know the validity of the solution. I have read countless articles about the notorious 2nd gear balkiness and experienced it myself. So I definitely believe your own experiences.
     
  21. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
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    I wouldn't say "Normal" either. I had a 80 308 that was awefull, an 85 QV Mondi that was like butter right out the box with valvoline 75-90. My 88 Mondi cab is "almost buttery" (MTL) right out of the box and a 348 that was somewhere in the middle (eitehr MTL or MT90). As a side note the 85 is the one with the most miles.

    People often comment on how it was this way with this oil and then I changed it and it was way better. Well news flash, fresh (less worn/aged/thin) oil is probably going to outperform what it is replacing.

    Engine oil, gearbox lube and belt threads will never go away, and that's fine. 98% of us have no clue of the true operations of what happens inside that box. Those that do and are willing to share their knowledge and experience are the true gems of Fchat.
     
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  22. M. Brandon Motorcars

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    Sep 4, 2007
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    I probably haven't driven as many 70s/80s V8 Ferraris as Rifledriver, but I've certainly driven (and owned) quite a few, as a dealer who specializes in these cars.

    The interesting trend that I've found is that the earlier the car, the _less_ chance that there is for trouble with 2nd gear when cold. The later you get into the 80s cars, the more chance there is for an issue with 2nd when cold.

    I know this doesn't make sense, given the changes that Ferrari made to the gearboxes over the years (grooves drilled, etc.). This is just first-hand (pun intended) experience. And, not all cars have problems. I've had 89 328s that shift like butter, cold or hot, and I've had 89 328s that won't go into 2nd gear when cold.

    As I said earlier, putting the appropriate Redline fluid (I like the NS) into the transmission helps tremendously, but on a car that has trouble with 2nd when cold, you're still going to have trouble with 2nd when cold even with the Redline, it just won't last as long and the other gears will be smoother.

    My own personal 88 Mondial 3.2 coupe has trouble with 2nd when cold. Got better with Redline NS, but it's still there. And this is a one owner car (prior to my ownership) with 4200 miles. I can't imagine that the gearbox was abused.
     
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  23. Subito Grigio

    Subito Grigio Karting

    Jun 2, 2009
    193
    Look at it this way: viagra warm-up takes twenty minutes, second gear warm up takes about five. Take it easy at first (and third), then she will be warmed-up sufficiently and lubed thoroughly. She will like you better for it and your relationship will last longer - trouble-free perhaps.

    SG


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  24. srephwed

    srephwed F1 Rookie
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    Apr 29, 2012
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    When it's cold I go from first to third.
     
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  25. davebdave

    davebdave Formula 3
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    Mar 18, 2007
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    There is a work-around other than skipping second, just double clutch the upshift.

    From First gear , clutch in, shift neutral, clutch out, blip the throttle, clutch in , shift to second, works every time.

    Here is a a video our daughter and I made where I demonstrate the second gear issue (approx. 4 1/2 minutes in)

     

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