News

250 LM Repro coming up for auction

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by amenasce, Aug 27, 2009.

  1. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    27,173
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
  2. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ

    Oct 17, 2005
    11,679
    At Sea Level
    assuming it's well done, metal body, with a real ferrari chassis number, don't all these repro trade in the $325-375K range?
     
  3. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    27,173
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    Those are the numbers yes. Quite a lot if you ask me..when you can get a Daytona for less or a Lusso for a little more.

    This LM would be fun with at least 300hp and for less than 300k$..
     
  4. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ

    Oct 17, 2005
    11,679
    At Sea Level
    agree. I'd rather have a daytona.

    have been tempted by a repro tr61 though...
     
  5. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,720
    NETHERLANDS
    I have seen the car many times in real live, it is really nice and would like to have it in my garage.
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 16, 2007
    4,982
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    There will not be any street Ferrari for the frame to be based on. Interesting that it is LHD since only a couple were originaly built that way.

    What is the story on how the car was built? Is it a recreation using left over parts? What is the engine?

    From the couple of photos shown the body appears to be pretty faithful.

    Jeff
     
  7. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
    1,424
    UK
    Full Name:
    Will Tomkins
    From the Barchetta entry on #6167 it might seem that this car is built using some remains of that chassis.
     
  8. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
    2,834
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
    #8 geno berns, Aug 27, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
    Andrew,

    I been wanting a well produced repro of a GTO, TR or an LM. The LM actually appeals to me more, as there are less of them around. In the last few weeks I been in talks with John from Motor Kraft about reproducing the LM. He tells me that the car over all is quite simple, except for the transaxle. To get a transaxle made from scratch would cost about $60-$80K. Good luck finding a used one. To get an aluminum car fully done may cost about $500K+. I also know of a car in England that was done up some years ago using a lot of real bits from an LM. They are asking $1.2MM. Therefore, I think if this RM car is a good duplicate and you absolutely refuse to write a check for the real yellow LM being sold by Gooding (saw it in Monterey a couple of weeks ago) for $7.5MM, than the $375K that's being tossed around can be a real bargain. BTW the red TR repro being offered by Talacrest that was done by the best in the biz, DK Engeneering, has an asking price of $1MM. Link: http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/29317/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=20&request%5bfilter%5d%5boffset%5d=0&request%5bfilter%5d%5browcount%5d=6&request%5bfilter%5d%5border%5d=year&request%5bfilter%5d%5bdesc%5d=asc&request%5bfilter%5d%5bdealer%5d=1014They say it's one of the best out there. For that price it better be almost real!

    Geno.

     
  9. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,267
    Cape Town, South Afr
    Full Name:
    Jack Verschuur
    I could live with it in my garage.

    Body looks good, but we have to wait for more specific information.

    At least someone went through an impressive amount of trouble to try do it right.

    I wonder what they used for a transaxle.
     
  10. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 16, 2007
    4,982
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    Geno,

    Have you driven an LM before? Make sure you know what they drive like first; a very nervous car that will bite really hard. It will require your undivided attention and real good ear protection.

    Jeff
     
  11. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,434
    West Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwin K. Niles
    I wonder if this car has bits of 6045, the car that Hart Isaacs crashed and burned. After that incident, it was cut up and parted out, with bits in several different places. I seem to remember seeing a car, years ago in Modena Sport Cars (Bruno's), that was alleged to have been built using some of those bits. Ron Kellogg, who had the chassis for a while, personally told me that the frame was cut into many pieces.

    Jeff is right; they are interesting cars to drive. VERY hot and noisy, but otherwise reasonably civilized if you don't try to go through a 30 MPH bend at 31.
     
  12. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

    Jan 3, 2009
    10,615
    Texass
    Have you driven one? Details!
    I remember an article in a recent Classic & Sports Car Mag in which the verdict was the LM is overall a better drive than a GTO.

    Oh to be able to speak from experience on the subject..... closest I came was staring at an LM, mouth agape, at the Schlumpf museum, and at several GTOs (Nurburgring Museum, last weekend at the Milaukee Masterpiece).
     
  13. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 16, 2007
    4,982
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    Yes, it was many, many years ago. Ed Niles and I both have seat time in the same car; he during his 2 periods of ownership. Another person to check with is Chuck Queener - he had Bud Keeney's for a summer.

    It is an experience that I always remember clearly even to today. Some points to keep track of:

    Clutch will eat your left leg trying to hold it in for very long.

    Driving for more than an hour without ear protection will leave you with a headache for the rest of the day.

    It has a complete crash box - no synchros on any gear. You have never had upshifts so quick. On the other side downshifts will make you pay attention.

    The one I spent time with had a locked rear end. As such be careful when adding power going around a corner on city streets. It will get sideways easily which is not a problem if you are expecting it.

    The driving position is strange. Your torso is completely outboard of centerline but your feet are angles to centerline. The steering wheel is somewhere in between. If you have a passenger they will be warned to keep their feet scrunched up and well away from the dead pedal.

    From a rolling start, nailing the throttle in first gear kept the rear end loose until you upshifted into 4th.

    The car communicates to the driver. The basic information is "I will bite and bite hard if you are anything but attentive".

    Chuck Queener warned me once that if you ever get the car sideways "never, never, ever back out! It will come around so fast that Phil Hill in his prime could not have caught it."

    I am unsure if I have enough undivided attention anymore to properly drive the car. If you want to have fun on the streets it will demand your concentration.

    God it was fun.

    Jeff
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Roof is wrong.

    Pete
     
  15. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
    2,834
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Thanks Jeff for the explanation. I always suspected the LM to have these characteristics that you described so well. Now I know I was right. I think my assumptions are what peaked my interest in this car. I like cars that make you pay attention and are a hand full. That makes the experience more interesting. I like that type of challenge and get that from my 365 BB and the CGT.

    Geno.



     
  16. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 4, 2004
    6,056
    Cape Town,SA
    Full Name:
    Jacques
    Great post, its always great to read about what these racers were actually like to drive, if I recall correctly AUTOCAR drove an LM a few years ago but the review was nothing as comprehensive as your one. I can just imagine the sound of that V12 on city streets.

    Thanks again.
     
  17. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
    1,424
    UK
    Full Name:
    Will Tomkins
    #17 246tasman, Aug 28, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
    I'm not sure that the DK cars are exact reproductions. Certainly the two I've seen were not. In the UK I think Neil Twyman has made the best copies. I think Piet Roelofs also has done very good ones.
     
  18. ted walker

    ted walker Karting

    Feb 7, 2009
    107
    gloucestershire UK
    Full Name:
    edward walker
    Whilst I was still at school in 1965 I used to cycle to my local Hill Climb venue at a place called Dyrham Park. My fondest memory was seeing local garage owner Ron Fry arrive by road in his brand new 250LM. many years later my father and I had a chance to buy the world worse 250LM for about £3000. I think it was the jeff Edmonds car with fibreglass nose,it had been kept outside for a period of time.After a family row we bought a racing E type.
     
  19. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,746
    Jeff,
    some years ago I had the privilege to drive 6217 in Spa on a private trackday.
    The LM was the most difficult car I ever drove! I can`t agree more with you on all points.
    But - its a far better car than the fabeld GTO. As Sheehan very wisely mentioned once: "A GTO makes a bad driver look good while the LM always needs a very good driver for not looking bad!"

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  20. Arjan

    Arjan Karting

    Oct 27, 2005
    88
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Arjan de Roos
    Comes from the Schermerhorn collection I presume.
     
  21. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

    Jan 3, 2009
    10,615
    Texass
    #21 Nurburgringer, Aug 28, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
    thanks for that Jeff!! Just about puts me right there in the driver's seat (just need that LP my father has stashed somewhere of screaming V12 engine notes).

    They should have included your description in the (excellent) new book "Go Like Hell" I just finished reading about the epic Ferrari/Ford battle(s) to even better appreciate the level of skill and bravery needed to pilot these cars in anger, at the limit
    http://www.amazon.com/Go-Like-Hell-Ferrari-Battle/dp/0618822194/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251461266&sr=8-1
     
  22. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

    Jan 3, 2009
    10,615
    Texass
    #22 Nurburgringer, Aug 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Personally I'd have 'replica' of the street version if given the choice.

    Totally wrong engine of course, but a well done body kit for an Elise (I'd have an Elise instead of my 308 if Lotus had used a more exotic motor, like a small V6) would be a fun. Even better, an Alfa T33 Stradale lookalike.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. don

    don Karting

    Jan 7, 2004
    56
    Dunedin Florida USA
    Full Name:
    Don Nelson
    What a load of rubbish you guys are talking about the LM's handling !

    I owned 6119 for many years, and had many opportunities to explore this on the road and track.

    I was rallying Porsche Carrera lightweight and others at the time, so a bit sideways was the norm. The LM behaved perfectly when out of shape, and could be balanced on the throttle with no problems. An initial understeer was useful in fast open corners, and any oversteering under power, through or exiting the turn was easily controlled.

    In really tight turns, it paid to be a bit brutal, and break the back end loose, in order to keep the revs in the power band. Like any other competition car of the time, the handling of the LM could be altered by tire pressures and shock/spring settings to suit the driver.

    Don
     
  24. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    27,173
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    You should inquire with RM for this LM. It looks very good. I have only seen one or 2 nice looking GTO ( The Silver car comes to mind..).
    But $1M for a repro is nuts !!
     
  25. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    9,484
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Thanks for that realistic summary, Don. If vintage cars were as difficult as some people claim, non of them would have survived! (Drivers or cars).
     

Share This Page