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2021 F1 changes

Discussion in 'F1' started by intrepidcva11, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie

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    Jean Todt just met with F1 participants (and Volkswagen representative) to discuss the next formula from 2021. They will apparently abandon the current hybrid V-6s in favor of noisier and less expensive engines and will likely abandon the fuel limitations to permit drivers to race full-out without having to consider fuel consumption. Both really good news. Here's the very long url:


    F1 plans to swap turbo engines for cheaper, noisier alternatives - F1 - Autosport
     
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  3. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Formula 3

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    Why wait till 2021?
    With Liberty's new ownership momentum this should be done sooner then later.
    F1 will die a slow death by 2021 at this rate.
     
  4. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    I hope so!!!!!!!!!! Seeing Bas and William going back and forth as well as some passionate tifosi out there(Todt V-8 forum).....I don't wanna get my hopes up just yet until its written in stone but its a good sign.
     
  5. furmano

    furmano Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Is this an April Fool's joke a day (or two) late? :p

    Until further proof, I say this is fake news. :D

    -F
     
  6. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie

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    OK furmano, here's further proof, cut and pasted from the Formula 1 website - is that good enough for you?:



    Saturday, 1 April, 2017

    The FIA yesterday hosted a meeting to commence discussions on the direction of power units for the FIA Formula One World Championship from 2021.

    SPORT
    FIA FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP
    CIRCUIT
    SEASON 2017
    F1
    FORMULA ONE
    FIA, Motorsport, Mobility, Road Safety, F1, WRC, WEC, WTCC, World RX

    Held at the Federation’s Paris headquarters and chaired by FIA President Jean Todt, the meeting was attended by a variety of Formula One’s key stakeholders, including representatives of the FIA, the new Commercial Rights Holder, current Power Unit suppliers, as well as automotive manufacturers and independent suppliers not currently involved in F1.

    A number of the attending automotive manufacturers were also represented by their road car arms.

    The meeting resulted in broad agreement for the future evolution of Formula One power units, with all parties seemingly aligned in their focus on:

    a desire to maintain F1 as the pinnacle of motor sport technology, and as a laboratory for developing technology that is relevant to road cars striving for future power units to be powerful, while becoming simpler and less costly to develop and produce improving the sound of the power units a desire to allow drivers to drive harder at all times.

    FIA President Jean Todt chaired the meeting, and was enthused by the positive discussion.

    “I was very pleased with the process, and the fact that so many different stakeholders were able to agree on a direction for the FIA Formula One World Championship in such an important technical area,” said Mr Todt.

    “Of course, now we must sit down and work through the fine details of exactly what the 2021 power units will be – but we have begun on the right foot, and I am looking forward to working through the process to come up with the best decision for Formula One into the future.”

    The FIA Formula One World Championship is committed to running the current 1.6-litre six-cylinder turbo hybrid power units until 2020. The current units have demonstrated astonishing technological advancement, producing between 900 and 1000 horsepower, while saving 30 per cent on fuel consumption compared to previous generation engines, and approaching the magic 50% thermal efficiency number – a figure that was unheard of three years ago.

    From 2021, the championship can introduce a new power unit configuration.

    END QUOTE

    Interestingly, representatives from Volkswagen were at the meeting, portending possible entry of Audi or even Lamborghini into F1?
     
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  8. furmano

    furmano Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 furmano, Apr 4, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    I'm just messing with you. Hey, if Todt and the FIA have finally come around to the idea of looking at other engine design options, then great! They're finally starting to listen to the damn customers for a change.

    But I'm afraid when I read the first link and then the second article you posted, I saw nothing that reflected the headline "F1 plans to swap turbo engines for cheaper, noisier alternatives". I saw some talk about going simpler and addressing the noise but no specifics. Talk about ditching the turbos appear to be speculation on the writer's part.

    Based on that, I think the headline writers got a bit ahead of themselves in order to offer up a splashy headline.

    BTW, funny how the FIA is stating it's goals are (among other things) 1) a desire to maintain F1 as the pinnacle of motor sport technology and 2) while becoming simpler and less costly to develop. I'm not sure that is actually possible. Typically, to be at the pinnacle, it requires a lot of expense. It's pretty hard to get both (cutting edge and relatively cheaper) at the same time.

    Based on these articles, are you convinced the FIA is planning to swap out the turbo engines for a cheaper, noisier (i.e. Normally Aspirated) engine?

    -F
     
  9. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    They seem to fully endorse the present formula, and have not indicated they will abandon it.

    If more progress are made within the next 4 years, I think it will be difficult to throw away years of R & D to go back to "simpler" engines.

    I don't know the deadline by which the next formula must be decided, but It will be interested to watch who is in, and who is out.
     
  10. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie

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    What will be really interesting is how to reconcile removing fuel restrictions to let drivers really race without worrying about conserving fuel, and finishing the race, with cost and safety (refuelling is costly - fuel rigs and redesigning cars - and dangerous).

    other real interest is Volkswagen attending - if the Company joins F1, will it be Lamborghini, Porsche or Audi, all of which have a claim to be the subsidiary to compete in F1, Lambo with the least racing genes.
     
  11. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    What about Bentley? Now there's some racing genes!!
     
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  13. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    I think if they increase slightly the tank size, that should be enough, without the need to go back to refuelling which the FIA said it didn't contemplate.

    IMO AUDI is the likely candidate in VW stable to enter F1. Audi has just stopped its WEC programme not to clash with Porsche, which is taking over the mantle in endurance, and they have a racing team at the ready with staff and installations, engineers and facilities, etc...
    Lamborghini is in fact managed by Audi these days, and with not the embryo of a racing team; even GT3 Lamborghini are engineered by Reiter in Germany.

    From a commercial point of view, it would make sense to have the Audi brand in F1 rather than the others. It's a volume manufacturer compared to Porsche and Lamborghini.

    After the VW diesel scandal, I suspect Audi will become the main brand at VAG, and the Wolfsburg name may become something of the past. Just a hunch ...
     
  14. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Not in F1 !

    Audi has a finite connection with pre-war Auto-Union: the share the same badge !!!

    Porsche ran an F1 team in 60 and 61, and built the TAG turbo engine on the McLaren F1.

    Lamborghini had a season in F1 when it was owned by Chrysler.
     
  15. Laserguru

    Laserguru Formula 3
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    From an engineering perspective, if introduction of a new power unit package is anticipated for 2021, then one might back up at least 3 years if the new configuration is a start-fresh approach. If it is more evolutionary, then 2 years could do it but would still be a push.

    Configuration decisions will need to be made by late fall or early winter of this year, mid year 2018 at the latest. After that, the compressed time frame will require more money and yield less reliability. That's development for you.....
     
  16. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    From what I read on The Judge 13, there was a general interest in maintaining the present formula, BUT with a few changes. Interestingly, not only the present players, but VW and Ilmor were there.

    The V6 bi-turbo would be kept in its present configuration, with the MGU-K, but the MGU-H would be abandoned. The MGU-H is the part that is accused of damping the noise at the moment. So we could gain some decibels, but not a lot.

    The fuel capacity would be increased, and the expected power would be up to ... 1200HP !!

    I can live with that!!!
     
  17. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    same here William as I read the same article. As Bas mentioned, any config with KERS but it will mostly likely be a V-6 TT with KERS and 1200hp....sounds good to me if they get the exhaust note up there than current engines.
     
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  18. 375+

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    Compared to what the diesel scandal is costing VW, F1 will seem like a drop in the bucket. It would be money well spent to reinvent their image.
     
  19. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    APRIL 5, 2017

    F1 eyes 1200hp twin-turbo V6 for 2021



    The next details about F1's potential new engine formula for 2021 are now emerging.

    Following a meeting with current and potential engine suppliers, FIA president Jean Todt revealed last week that the plan is to make the current 'power units' simpler, cheaper and louder for the future.

    New F1 sporting boss Ross Brawn is also on board, declaring: "Before we think about a sustainable car concept for formula one, the engine must be clarified.

    "Everything else depends on it."

    Germany's Auto Motor und Sport has the first details.

    Correspondent Michael Schmidt said the early frontrunner for the 2021 engine concept is a V6 twin-turbo producing 1200 horse power -- and missing altogether is the current 'MGU-H' technology.

    The report said it is also possible that the batteries and turbochargers may be standardised, with the hybrid element of the engine to simply be KERS.

    F1 driver turned pundit for German television Sky, Marc Surer, said: "We have two problems.

    "First, the FIA does not want to abandon hybrid engines. But the single-turbo removes the sound.

    "The single biggest problem with F1 at the moment is the sound, and this is simply not solvable with one big turbo. We need two turbos.

    "But then it becomes technically difficult to get energy from the exhaust. So the FIA may need to sacrifice the MHU-H and offer the fans a better sound."
     
  20. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Yep, but the diesel scandal gave VW a bad name on some markets, and VAG could well sell their cars under the Audi logo.

    If I was in charge at VAG, I would do that .... LOL
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I'm a little disappointed that the coolest technology is being dropped, ie. the electrically powered turbo, from what I understand, or is it the electricity generated from the turbo that is being dropped?

    Spooling up a turbo via an electric motor is so bloody clever!!!
    Pete
     
  22. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    Looks to be the MGU-H that is being dropped Pete and a second turbo added....1200hp...they are keeping the MGU-K.
     
  23. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    I agree.
     
  24. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    Parity, lower costs and high technology – F1 team bosses discuss future engine rules Apr. 7, 2017

    Several team bosses discussed the future direction of Formula 1’s engine rules today; with different opinions offered on what power plants the championship should use from 2021.

    Following a meeting between the FIA and F1’s current engine manufacturers last week – which was also attended by Ross Brawn on behalf of Formula One Management and representatives from OEM companies not currently involved in the series – the governing body issued a statement explaining that a broad agreement had been made to make the new engines cheaper and nosier than the current hybrid V6 turbo power units.

    The exact specifications of the future engines are still being discussed, but the outcome of the meeting suggested they would become simpler, while retaining high power levels and remaining relevant to road car technology.

    The engine proposals were discussed during the team principals’ press conference at the Chinese Grand Prix, which is taking place in Shanghai this weekend.

    Toro Rosso’s Franz Tost, Sauber’s Monisha Kaltenborn, Haas F1’s Guenther Steiner, Force India’s Bob Fernley and Renault’s Cyril Abiteboul were all asked for their thoughts on the future direction for F1’s engine regulations.

    Tost – who’s team has run Renault and Ferrari engines since the V6 turbo regulations came in at the start of the 2014 season – and Kaltenborn both called for parity between the different power trains, and the former offered his thoughts on the high cost of the current units.

    He said: “The current engine is simply far too expensive. From the technology side, it’s a fantastic engine, it’s extraordinary technology but it’s therefore also very, very expensive.

    Franz Tost

    “Regarding the parity and the costs,” he continued. “This is now in the hands of the people who make the regulations and if the development is restricted from the beginning onwards with very strong regulations then I think we will achieve the goals with the parity and the costs and the sound, it should be able to find a solution that the fans are happy with, the music of this new engine.”

    Costs are also a major concern for Kaltenborn, who outlined her belief that engine performance should not be the factor that determines success in F1 after 2021.

    She said: “We want them to come down to an affordable level. But more importantly there should be a certain parity amongst the powertrains. We wouldn’t want that the engine should be the main denominator or differentiator in performance. So what’s very important is the parity and the costs.”

    Although the V6 turbo engines have divided opinion among F1 insiders and fans, the technology they use is at an extremely high level. Engineers have noted that the current power unit is more powerful than the V8s and V10s used in previous eras, while breaking new ground in terms of efficiency.


    Steiner and Fernley argued that F1’s future engines should not drop the technological advancements used in the current units.

    “The technology in this engine is amazing for everybody involved in engines, this is an amazing technology, so now we go backwards and maybe invest more money to develop something which is actually not as sophisticated as this,” said Steiner.

    Fernley added: “I think that the principle of the current engine shouldn’t just be abandoned, a lot of work has gone into it but I think it could be simplified a little bit. I think a lot of the things that we’re doing perhaps go beyond what even the most sophisticated of fans is understanding, so we could come back a little bit, get the cost right, obviously get the power and the noise right and move forward but you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.”


    Abiteboul, who represented the only engine manufacturer at today’s press conference, described his belief that F1’s future engines should retain their relevance to road car technology. This was a crucial argument that led to F1 adopting the hybrid engine rules in the first place, with Renault arguing in the early part of this decade that it would quit the championship if such technology was not implemented.

    He said: “I don’t think that Formula 1 can afford to turn its back on some things that are relevant to the manufacturer, given the current business model of Formula 1. Formula 1 could completely change to a different business model and go for something that is really different and not road-relevant but that would be a brave manoeuvre.”

    Abiteboul also believes that the future engines should continue to incorporate electrical elements, but suggested the MGU-H could be dropped after 2021.

    He said: “I think everyone agrees that there should be some element of electrification. We don’t necessarily see some road relevance or contribution to the show to an element like MGU-H, so that this orientation for the future, I think the whole debate would be on the architecture of the internal combustion engine which will be an interesting debate and some things that I guess will keep us busy for the next few months.”

    Another meeting between the FIA, FOM and the engine manufacturers is expected to take place in May and the governing body has tasked the parties to come up with proposals for the new power units. Those ideas will then be regularly assessed going forward as F1 again heads towards its next new era.

    source: https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/04/parity-lower-costs-and-high-technology-f1-team-bosses-discuss-future-engine-rules/
     
  25. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    I don't know for sure, but I think that Abitebould of Renault speaks for the other constructors too.

    If F1 abandon "relevance" and go back to previous technology, they are out.

    Not a threat, but a firm position, IMO.
     
  26. NEP

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    Audi to make F1 decision soon



    Audi is not ruling out entering F1 in time for the new engine regulations in 2021.

    The German marque has quit Le Mans and is now focused on Formula E, but the Dutch publication Formule 1 claims that a F1 foray is not being ruled out.

    Indeed, the VW brand recently took part in talks about the future shape of F1's engine rules, with the sport committed to improving the current 'power unit' era.

    "Like all other potential manufacturers, we were invited by the FIA and have discussed a possible participation," said Audi Motorsport chief Dieter Gass.

    "If we decide to participate in 2021, we have to decide soon," he added.

    So far, current F1 stakeholders have agreed that the engines should be simpler, cheaper and louder beyond the end of the current regulations ending in 2020.

    "There should be technical changes, yes, but I wonder if they will come," Gass said.

    And he said it's not just about the future rules, but a deeper question about whether Audi and F1 fit together.

    "That is more of a philosophical question," admitted Gass. "Is this what Audi stands for? Is it interesting for our marketing?

    "At the moment, Formula E is a logical choice for us," he said.
     
  27. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ
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    A man named Gass focusing on Formula E...
     
  28. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran
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    As one who has been screaming about the lack of sound, this cannot happen soon enough.

    I would LOVE to see Audi enter F1. They certainly make reliable cars, so maybe they could do well.
     

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