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1985 Ferrari Noble P-4 Reproduction

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Zxgarage, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. Zxgarage

    Zxgarage Formula Junior
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  2. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    The Noble bodywork is a pretty good representation of P4 from the cowling down, the body molds were supposedly "splashed" from a real P4 that was owned by David Piper at the time. The roofline was changed to give some more headroom, but it's a pretty good representation. At least it's closer to the correct shape than some of the other P4 bodies I've seen.

    Still it's a kit car, never mind what who built it, and a 308 motor isn't going to provide a lot of grunt. All that said it's looks to be pretty well built kit, just a lot more $ than it is worth.
     
  3. ForzaV12

    ForzaV12 Formula 3

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    Wheels and some of the interior/engine bits are simply awful on the car. Change those and you'd have a much better fake.
     
  4. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    +1

    The Noble has more modern spindles and the offset of the P4 was huge, to get the the brakes inboard of the wheels, but it made the look totally different. You'd have to redesign the suspension to get it to look right.
     
  5. Zxgarage

    Zxgarage Formula Junior
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    I still thinking would be cool to have a replica, with a 12 on it...
     
  6. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

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    #7 P4Replica, Jan 2, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    So what else would you like to know about it ?

    It was built from a later Noble P4 kit - chassis # 079 [​IMG]
    according to my records by Bill Andrews (HRE of NY) - not by Lee Noble, in England, as inferred / stated in the description:
    Apart from the Noble chassis tag, the later cars, like this, are easy to recognize from the full width scuttle access panel;
    earlier cars had just a 6" x 8" hatch through which to access the master cylinder reservoirs.
    Presumably the VIN # F106A000002010079 is an amalgam of the Ferrari 308 donor's engine number and the Noble chassis tag.
    As far as I know, this car has never actually been registered for road use. Hence the '0' miles.

    The car belongs to a collector who lives in the Charlottesville, VA area. Presumably it is being sold on consignment.
    This gentleman did actually own two Noble P4 replicas at one point - probably up until some time in the late 1990's.
    They were both on an old website, which has long since disappeared into the ether:
    http://www.swcp.com/~zsprings/ferrarib.htm One of the first P4 replica websites I ever saw.

    The other car was a spyder, chassis # 007, powered by a Buick V8 on downdraft Webers. It was originally Richard Brengman's demonstrator and has since changed hands a couple of times. Last time I corresponded with the owner, in the DFW, TX area he was planning to replace the Buick V8 with a Norwood injected 308QV motor.

    Funnily enough, I ran a quick search on the car's owner and there is previous mention (or two) made of him on Fchat - both in reference to his prior ownership of a Lamborghini V12-powered Bizzarrini P538: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=141990297 So his taste in cars can't be all bad.

    Anyway, getting back to the Noble P4 in question ....
    For the last 12 years, it has been on display / stored in the showroom of Gassman Automotive of Waynesboro, VA

    It's also for sale on their website: http://www.gassmanautomotive.com/cars-for-sale-2/ferrari-p3/
     
  7. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

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    #8 P4Replica, Jan 2, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    I'm sorry to correct you, but you're wrong on that point. Noble P4's use Ford (UK) front uprights / spindles and Noble's own cast aluminium rear uprights (same as on the Ultima Mk2). No suspension modifications are needed, whatsoever.

    What is 'wrong' with the car is its wheels. They are Compomotive TX split rim alloys (16" diameter, rather than 15", too).
    Whoever ordered them specified the wrong offsets (and rim widths). The look could easily be rectified by ordering and fitting replacement spit rims.
    Also the rear tyres aren't big enough, IMO. They're BF Goodrich Comp T/A 255/50VR16.
    Really to fill the rear arches properly you need at least 275/55's or 295/50 or 305/50. Unfortunately it's not easy to source road legal tyres in 15" diameter (or 16" for that matter) nowadays, which is why people tend to settle for alternatives, which don't look so good.

    Have a scroll through this Flickr gallery, and you'll see plenty of other P4 replicas (not just Noble P4's) where the owners have managed to get the wheel offsets correct, and fill the arches properly, using Compomotive (or Image) split rim wheels and the original Ford / Noble uprights:

    http://www.flickr.com/groups/p4replica/pool/

    Funnily enough, the 308 V8-engined Noble P4 spyder (at Cars & Coffee, in Irvine, CA) in the newest 8 photos in the group pool does actually use Ferrari 308 front uprights and spindles, but then it is fitted with Boxer 15" rims.
     
  8. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Dec 30, 2006
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    Hi Paul. Nice to see you again.
     
  9. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

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    You too, Francis. Happy New Year. I enjoyed reading your contributions in the Bizzarri P538 thread, recently. ;)
     
  10. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

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    Now re-listed: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/P-4-/271133204605

    Must admit I was somewhat sceptical when the previous listing ended as 'sold' for $100K after 3 days. :rolleyes:

    Note also that the VIN # has been removed from the description in the revised version of the listing.
     
  11. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 Veteran
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    i love it and feel it would be fantastic with a good ppi at around $110k. wish i was in the market
     
  12. BlueMarlinMotorsUSA

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    #13 BlueMarlinMotorsUSA, Feb 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2013
    Hello all,
    This is Cameron in Stuart Fl.

    We are very fortunately consigning this car for this gentleman. The last gentleman's comments @P4Replica made me have to comment.

    We have had this issue before with other cars, eBay rejects the vin for no apparent reason. With further investigation with our Account manager, we then were advised to put the vin in the title of the listing.

    I invite all of you to come down for some Starbucks to check this p-4 out sometime. I appreciate all of your comments, and thoughts!

    May your motor never run dry,

    -Cameron C.
     
  13. mseals

    mseals Global Moderator
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    Please note, in the post above, I've removed the commercial contact information, rather than delete the post.

    The rules of the forum require for you to either be a sponsor or a subscribed member to post any form of advertisement.

    Observing the rules will be much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  14. BlueMarlinMotorsUSA

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    #15 BlueMarlinMotorsUSA, Feb 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2013
    I am so sorry for my indiscretion. I wish you gentleman the best.
    -Cameron
     
  15. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

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    My apologies if my comments about the vehicle's VIN were misconstrued by readers, in any way. ;)

    I see it's back on the 'Bay, re-listed again as an auction: Ferrari : Other P-4 in Ferrari | eBay Motors
     
  16. BlueMarlinMotorsUSA

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    #17 BlueMarlinMotorsUSA, Feb 15, 2013
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    We have further verified that the engine is from a 308 Ferrari, we are gathering additional info daily on this classic.

    -Cameron C.
     
  17. fatarnie

    fatarnie Karting

    Jan 2, 2008
    59
    UK
    I'm sorry to correct you Paul, but you're also wrong on this point.


    As an owner of an extensively modified P4 based replica of 0854, I disagree with the above. The issue with the Noble and the Foreman (which is itself a replica of a replica) is the Ultima derived chassis which despite its Lee Noble design heritage, is a dogs breakfast.

    The upper and lower wishbone lengths are too different, causing far too much rear camber change in compression, and possibly rear bump steer with really wide (15") rear tyres like a real P4. As there is no possibility to further shorten the wishbones, this has an impact on the distance between the hub/wheel mounting flanges, which in turn means the rear wheels have very little offset to create the level of dish a real P4's rear wheels have.

    The problem is exacerbated if you want to use proper rear brakes (needed if you are running the 400+hp these cars should have and also if you wish to use knock on hubs instead of Ford Granada (Europe) 5 x 112.5 stud fixings.

    All that can be done is to reconstruct the rear of the chassis to the inboard end of the wishbones, which is an immense amount of work attempted by only 1 or two owners so far.Everything with these cars is a compromise. A Renault V6 engined example sold on eBay UK recently for under $30k - this was unusually low they normally fetch double. Better cars with corrected roof heights, more original looking dashboards, handmade replica Veglia gauges, Altissimo rear lamps and a Ferrari engine etc will go for much more. The $200k figure on Wikipedia, for a really well put together replica is a fair estimate IMO.
     
  18. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

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    Have it your way, Arnie. Ultima Sports Ltd - History (scroll down)

    That'll be the Foreman Mk4 which you purchased as a part-built kit from John Sims in April 2009 then ? Originally planned to be fitted with a Renault V6 Turbo, now a Ferrari F355 motor, I believe. It was originally created as Foreman chassis # NFA***********044.
    But I expect by the time you've finished it will have a Ferrari chassis number. Right ?

    Yes Arnie. Of course you're right. That was a well-built nicely modified and detailed Foreman Mk4 powered by a Rover V8:
    Ferrari P4 Foreman | eBay - and it failed to make £20K.

    You should take a good close look at the ex-Eddie Perk Renault V6 powered Noble P4 replica some time. It'll show you what can be done, in terms of realistic appearance without resorting to the need for altering the rear suspension and chassis.

    I can cite a number of examples where 'silly money' (and I'm talking in £100K's) has been lavished on converting / modifying Foreman P4's. Only for them to be subsequently sold for massive losses. Do you need me to quote examples ?

    I have never been under any delusion what my own car is. That's one reason why I picked the username P4Replica, when I started posting on FerrariChat in 2003. You Sir, and others like you who attempt to mis-represent their P4 replicas, who have thrown small fortunes at their glorified kit cars in their efforts to turn them into something they're not - (nor never will be) are one of the main reasons I walked away from the P4 Replica BB. Now I've said it.
     
  19. fatarnie

    fatarnie Karting

    Jan 2, 2008
    59
    UK
    Paul, I was not attacking you, I was making a statement based upon engineering fact.

    The distance between the hub faces on a Noble P4 or a Foreman come to that is too great, given the width of the body, to get wheels on which are in any way of similar mounting or dimension to a real P4.

    You are also fully aware that the car built by Eddie Perks, whilst wearing modified Noble bodywork, does not have a Noble chassis. Eddie made the chassis himself.

    So your first quote relating to the history of the Ultima, Nobles company Kitdeal etc. is really of no relevance.

    And so to the pi$$ing contest I will respond to just once.


    I have no idea why you refer to the Foreman Mk4 I I purchased as parts from John Sims - that collection of parts had a serial number, not a chassis number. It does not and never will be registered as a Ferrari and I do take exception to your comment that I would attempt to deceive people in that way. I have fully complied with all legislation relating to the registration and licencing of motor vehicles as required by the 2002 statute of the same name.

    I also know of examples where what you subjectively refer to as 'silly money' has been lavished on converting / modifying Foreman P4's, only for them to be subsequently sold for massive losses. Mine is no such car.

    I would like to pick apart your last sentence though.

    I have never been under any delusion what my own car is. (neither am I - according to the log book its a Renault ;-)) That's one reason why I picked the username P4Replica, when I started posting on FerrariChat in 2003. (fabulous. Just don't post stuff you do not know to be true, that is inflammatory or slanderous, or that pleasure will be rescinded once more) You Sir, and others like you who attempt to mis-represent their P4 replicas oh dear, inflammatory, or slanderous in once sentence who have thrown small fortunes please help me out here as I am not sure if a "small fortune" is less or more than "silly money" - I think you would find I have spent less on my car than you did yours, but then, I'm maybe a shrewder cookie. at their glorified kit cars in their efforts to turn them into something they're not - (nor never will be) are one of the main reasons I walked away from the P4 Replica BB. Now I've said it. I don't think you have, you just don't post. Who is "guest" BTW??

    I'll pass on your regards to Max, Vance and Mark.
     

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