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12467 Daytona Comp offered by Artcurial

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Daytonafan, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    And having read the claims about its provenance as noted above, it may well struggle to top $2 million........ "Alberto Pedretti of Wide World of Cars is said to have converted the car to Daytona Comp SIII specification from its original uprated specification in 1977. Engine in 1993 said to have been uprated to SIII specs with a new cylinder block using the rest of the original engine. Original block still with the car. The then owner in 2016 claims it to be the 2nd Prototype in the Keno Brothers video below. It will be interesting to see what Artcurial say about the car when it goes on their web site."
     
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  3. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Timmy: Please read the above posts, I clarified both the Pedretti connection and the replacement block.
     
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  4. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Sorry, didn't read back far enough. Please ignore the post above.
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #29 miurasv, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
    Personally I think 12467 is an important car in Ferrari History if it is actually what it is said to be, which is the Works Daytona Prototype developed by Mauro Forghieri and his Team for the new Group 4 Regulations set out in 1971 by the FIA for Grand Touring Specials where certain modifications were allowed hence the familiaral Competizione features such as the big wheels, extended bodywork, Plexi windows and straight through side exhausts seen on this car and the later Comp Daytonas. Ferrari were not able to get the Daytona homologated under the new Regulations until the end of 1971 or beginning of 1972 possibly because of needing 500 units built. If I have understood correctly Group 4 was previously the Sports class and the Daytona had to be categorized in that class due to few numbers built and 12547 found itself competing with faster dedicated race cars. Under the 1971 FIA Regulations the Sports cars would be categorized in Group 5. Marcel and Dyke have confirmed Factory invoices either for work or preparation done by them or for work they commissioned Diena & Silingardi to do on 12467. In my opinion if Artcurial and the owner want to get what they want for 12467 they are going to have to clarify these invoices to prove all of the above along with other Ferrari paperwork authenticating the car as a Works Prototype.
     
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  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    I agree that they need to clarify the exact provenance to ensure they maximise return to the vendor.
    You are correct with your points about Group 4/5 racing in period, all well covered in Wimpffens Time and Two Seats bible.
     
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  8. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

    Mar 27, 2014
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    I think the fact that there is still debate after two public sales means that the value has already taken a strong hit. They'll have to provide some pretty strong evidence from some very credible sources to get anywhere near estimate. Is a good comp Daytona with well known history even worth $9 million?
     
  9. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Unlikely since some much greater cars are pegged around that level, a poor 250LM, decent LWB California, many 250 SWB, 250MM, 340MM, poor 375MM, most 250GT Tour de France can all be had for $9 million and I don't see the Daytona sitting in that class. Also even the Alloy stradale Daytona sold at RMs Maranello sale went for just a fraction of that, I would guess even the best should be around $5 - 7 million. That said Artcurial offered one of the best Pininfarina Series 1 at Retromobile and while other examples have sold at $5 - 6 million, they asked pretty much the same money at 7 - 9 million EURO/ $9 - 11 million. The question could be asked, is this just a vendor using an expensive method to find out what the market actually values my cars at?
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    As said before the vendor is a well known dealer in the Marseille/F area. Same vendor consigned the black painted 250 S1 Cab to Artcurial in Paris 2/18.

    Marcel Massini
     
  11. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Puzzled. Why would Guikas think it is worth that much? did he buy it for much more than $4m???
     
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  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    We have seen various cars offered from that dealer at auction over the last few decades and whatever their business model, they seem to be sustainable and still in business. They were successful with 250LM #5845 at RM Maranello back in 2008/9 but many more have failed at some reasonable bids versus their often extraordinary reserves. Fascinating stuff......
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Are Keno Brothers still doing car auctions?
     
  16. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    No they disappeared from the scene after the New York fiasco.
     
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  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    12467 was not converted to Competizione specification by Forghieri/his team or Ferrari. I asked Ing. Forghieri about it in the last few days.
     
  18. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Steve: Please see the attached factory list of Comp Daytona's. I am not necessarily questioning somebody's memory, but paper records are pretty good sources.
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  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #41 miurasv, Apr 28, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
    Interesting, Dyke. Thanks. So on top of the "Official 15" of 3 series of 5 cars, 12467 is on the list, which Ing. Forghieri "remembers well" and is "convinced" was done by (/for?) Chinetti; 13855 done for Chinetti by Sport - Auto; 14141 done for Chinetti by Traco. Also, I see 12547 is not on the list.

    May I ask what is the exact source and date of that document?
     
  20. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #42 miurasv, Apr 28, 2018
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    Anyone wanting to maximise the price and to stand the best chance of attaining an actual sale for 12467 should return it to the bodily and mechanical specification that it was at Le Mans, 1971, if possible restore and reunite the original cylinder block, and then send the car to Classiche. If indeed it is a Ferrari Factory conversion, or commissioned by them, it would achieve Red Book Certification. If not it would achieve White Book Certification as a Ferrari of Historical Interest.
     
  21. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Steve: It was too long ago for me to remember when I received the document from the factory. I would guess at least 30-35 years.
     
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  22. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    This is the second part of that factory list from 1973. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    The crazy market for Ferrari in 2014 spawned new auctions by Keno, Dragone, Rob Kauffmans RK Motors and Rick Cole. All of them are either taking a hiatus or have ceased offering car auctions...............
     
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  24. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Boudewijn: Thank you for filling in the remainder of the document. It was typical of the factory in that period to only supply information that was specific to the single question they were asked. I have numerous documents, in which the factory "removed" sections of the data.
     
  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #47 miurasv, Apr 28, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
    I don't think the document is proof that 12467 was converted or commissioned by Ferrari or can be considered a Ferrari Works Daytona Competizione. It includes 13855 and 14141 which are not Works cars and are conversions outside the Factory. The Note re 12467, I think, may mean that that it was entered at Le Mans, 1971 in the class of Group 4 Prototype and that it was a normal car with modifications.

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  26. ERA

    ERA Rookie

    Dec 21, 2015
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    And he still has ex-Paul Newman Daytona Gr4 which may be auctioned this summer...

    Believe he will have another Ferrari at Artcurial auction in Le Mans.
    The Daytona mostly looks like a move by Artcurial to attract other interesting cars as it is harder than ever for any auction house to auction interesting cars...
     
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  27. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

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    How deep are Adam Corolla's pockets?
     
  28. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Paul Newman's Daytona Rolex fetched $17,752,500. I wonder what the value of his Factory Daytona Competizione Ferrari would be? S1 Alloy #14437.
     
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