355 engine rattle - advice needed | FerrariChat

355 engine rattle - advice needed

Discussion in '348/355' started by adw, Nov 9, 2011.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. adw

    adw Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    18
    #1 adw, Nov 9, 2011
    my 95 355 developed a nasty loud engine rattle a while back only first noticed when you backed up out of the garage ( sounded like a heat shield vibration ) - over a period of time / miles it got worse - however only from cold and only evident when you take up the drive and put the engine under load as if to pull off ( not evident when driving on the road even labouring the engine ). The noise went once the engine was warm and returned once left and restarted from cold / cool - but again not present on tick over only when you take up the drive - in fact you can induce it by letting the clutch out with you foot on the brake. Had a tech change / isolate the auxillary belts but to no avail - the diagnosis was that the noise was coming from the front of the sump area so we took off the sump and found the oil pump chain tensioner pad had slid partly off the mechanism and the mounting bracket had bent slightly. I was told that the challenge cars had some issues with oil pump chains stretching and this car has seen some track use so thought this would be the issue - bit the bullet and had the engine removed to change the chain - when the chain cover was removed there was evidence of the chain touching / wearing the upper guide - though we had located the issue - changed the cam belts, new Hill tensioner bearings, new oil pump chain, new chain tensioner ( much stronger than the old one ) even changed the drive spigots in the oil pump ( which didn't appear particularily worn ) just incase it was chatter in the oil pump drive - checked the oil pump against another used one and didn't seem any different albeit you can chatter the gears if you rotate back & forth - all put back together and unfortunately just the same - this time it doesn't seem to go so quickly when the engine warms up and can be demonstrated for longer - we have noticed that the engine movement is greater on this car than on another customers car when the drive is taken up, but have tried bracing the engine whilst on a ramp with a crow bar and the noise doesn't alter so I don't think anything is touching due to engine movement. I have mentioned the posts on this forum re the hydraulic cam belt tensioners chattering to a couple of techs and they have said that the tensioners seemed normal and were set up with the pin in hole method - I'm stumped and a lot poorer desperate for some advice where to go next ! are the cam belt hydraulic tensioners the culprits ?
     
  2. roadracer311

    roadracer311 Formula 3

    May 6, 2009
    2,398
    San Francisco
    Full Name:
    Paul
    #2 roadracer311, Nov 10, 2011
    I'm pretty sure the sound you're looking for is coming from the tensioners, as you mentioned. When the belts are cold, I think they're tighter and it's making the plunger in the tensioner "clap" against the base as it bottoms out. As the belts warm up, I think they loosen up a bit and the tensioner is no longer bottoming out. As the belts age, I'll bet they stretch a bit, and you'll get less of this sound. Seems to be a common sound. I'll bet a brand new tensioner would be ok using the pin method, but as they age, they probably just don't have the strength to keep from bottoming out.

    I'm not a Ferrari mechanic though. (I do wrench on motorcycles for a living and have a degree in physics for whatever that's worth). I'm sure someone who (unlike myself) knows what they're talking about will chime in soon.
     
  3. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Rookie

    Aug 3, 2010
    20
    Sooke, BC
    Full Name:
    Rod J.
    #3 Gearjammer, Nov 11, 2011
    Do you hear the rattle on engine shut-down?
     
  4. adw

    adw Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    18
    #4 adw, Nov 11, 2011
    No there is no noise on shut down & not present at idle or when reving - the noise has to be induced by letting out the clutch with your foot on the brake and the noise occurs before the engine gets to stall and is only noticable on a cold engine - interestingly when I mention the chattering of the tensioners to any techs in the UK they dismiss this saying never heard of it - but i've noticed a lot of reference on this forum.
     
  5. dertizjos

    dertizjos Formula Junior

    Jul 20, 2011
    453
    New Jersey
    #5 dertizjos, Nov 11, 2011
    I have a similiar problem with my 348 right now. The only difference is I hear it on accleration when warm. I have it at the shop right now and believe it is clutch related.

    I also hear a slight high pitch whine when ideling, that goes up and down when you press the gas, that goes away when I engage the clutch.

    I beleive they are both related and may involve a bearing in the tranny. I will post what they find out if it may help.
     
  6. adw

    adw Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    18
    #6 adw, Nov 14, 2011
    I would doubt that this is transmission related as the noise appears right at the front of the engine - far away from the geabox
     
  7. adw

    adw Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    18
    #7 adw, Dec 25, 2011
    I,ve now had new tensioners fitted along with a new alternator tensioner bearing and a different water pump and the problem is still present - quite loud when the engine is cold and only when the drive is taken up - the noise virtually dissapears when the engine is warm - any thoughts guys
     
  8. ClydeM

    ClydeM F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2003
    10,596
    Wayne, NJ
    Full Name:
    Clyde E. McMurdy
    #8 ClydeM, Dec 25, 2011
    My rattle was not unlike what you described.
    I had just started the car cold and was checking around the engine bay. My leg pressed against the outside rear quarter panel right about where the fan was and the noise stopped. Turned out the hose clamp that holds the gas filler drain to the fan was so close to the body panel it would tap. The engine warmed up and ran a little better (and perhaps the gap of clamp to body increased) and the rattle kinda went away unless under big load. But the car is a bit loud, so it was tough to tell. Bend the clamp away from the body and Voila.
     
  9. Brigadelok

    Brigadelok Karting

    Jul 31, 2009
    87
    San Anselmo, CA
    Full Name:
    Jonathan
    #9 Brigadelok, Dec 26, 2011
    I have a 1998 Berlinetta that has similar symptoms although not quite as severe. I only notice it on cold startup when backing out of the driveway and then just on clutch take-up. It is worse if I don’t give the car gas and it almost stalls. It feels like it’s clutch related. I was interested in the earlier post on the tensioners but you seem to have disproved that theory. This may not be related but I have a steep driveway and when I mentioned this to my local independent Ferrari shop related to problems of bottoming out, they warned me against backing up the driveway, and implied that the clutch/drivetrain has some kind of failsafe mechanism to protect the engine in case of accidental selection of reverse, and it could cause problems if overloaded in reverse gear, although I have never seen this mentioned anywhere else. I have been wondering if this could be somehow partially activated by the initial reversing although I have never tried a complete cold start in first, rather than reverse, to test this out.
     
  10. LmnsBlu355

    LmnsBlu355 Formula Junior

    Dec 28, 2009
    284
    NY
    Full Name:
    Jordan S.
    #10 LmnsBlu355, Dec 26, 2011
    What Brigadelok describes sounds a lot like what I have noticed on my car. Only at low revs in reverse with the clutch partially engaged. Probably a combo of clutch chatter and the voth damper oscillating as the clutch grabs. I had another noise which has been traced to the intake plenum (see BRADAN 355 major service thread).

    Your noise may be a normal variant and as long as no other symptoms, may not be worrisome. Try comparing side by side with another 355.
     
  11. adw

    adw Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    18
    #11 adw, Dec 28, 2011
    thanks for inputs - I can induce some gearbox chatter but the noises I am concerned with do appear to be coming from the cam belt side of the engine - the only thing I can see left in that area is the 3 helix transfer gears which connect the cranksahft to the lower cam belt pulleys - has anyone come across these rattling when cold ?
     
  12. Jeff Pintler

    Jeff Pintler Formula Junior

    Jul 20, 2005
    537
    Richland
    Full Name:
    Jeff Pintler
    #12 Jeff Pintler, Jan 1, 2012
    On the chance that you haven't found the rattle, you might check the cats. I was working on a friends car and after rolling it out of the garage, the rattle appeared. The ceramic matrix decided to fail at that moment and the metal ring that backs the matrix rattles. this was on a 355. Once you have pulled the cat and verify, take an air powered abrasive cutoff wheel and cut through the seam and the ring inside, then use stainless steel mig to weld up the cut. FWIW.

    Jeff Pintler
    89 348tb, 86tr, 99 360 3pedal
     
  13. adw

    adw Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    18
    #13 adw, Jan 4, 2012
    thanks for advice - I have replaced the cats with 200 cell items - the noise remains the same - I will check out the throttle linkages as recommended although the noise is only present under load and not when you rev
     
  14. Choochpower

    Choochpower Rookie

    Jan 19, 2017
    1
    #14 Choochpower, Jan 22, 2017
    Sounds like it could be piston slap
     
  15. Burli81

    Burli81 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2020
    13
    Austria
    #15 Burli81, Sep 25, 2020
    Did you find out what the problem was?
     
  16. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    5,969
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    #16 taz355, Sep 25, 2020
    Probably won’t respond not be on the site for almost 5 years
     
  17. Burli81

    Burli81 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2020
    13
    Austria
    #17 Burli81, Sep 26, 2020
    You'll never know if you don't try :)
     
  18. lanab

    lanab Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2016
    449
    Stockholm, Sweden
    #18 lanab, Sep 26, 2020
    Please check my video i did last year if it's anything near your type of noise and rattle problems, the rattling is later in the video.
    In my case it was both a broken exhaust system and ignition problems from old teared spark plug cables and not replacing spark plugs for a very long time.

    I have completely restored the car to top condition today from previous owner who neglected maintenance for many years.....

     

Share This Page