458 Lithium ion battery

After the failing Odessey battery which I found in my 458, I exchanged that for a normal AGM battery of $ 100.

With a battery tender permanently, it still serves its purpose well 3 years already now.

For this reason I will never go to other (types of) batteries because I simply see no reason…

And the involved price of these extreme batteries ( ?> $ 600 ?) are for that reason completely wasted imo.

Just my 2 cts

 

I get what you are saying but the terminology is reversed. Lead-acid batteries are non-linear with respect to amp-hour performance whereas lithiums have a flatter amp-hour curve or are more linear.

 

I have had Braille in my two GT3’s. Never had a problem. Now I have one in my 458. No problem. Sometimes I don’t drive a car for weeks, and it still starts up right away. In the GT3, it saves me about 38 pounds. I think it saves even more on the 458. I am very happy with my Braille batteries. Looks awesome too. Has a carbon fiber-looking exterior.

 

Just reviving this thread.... saw some posts on the Lithium Batteries and wanting to give some data since I'm well versed on this and have had several in my Cars over the last several years.

As far as the Braille and Antigravity Batteries....they are both sort of the Main players... Braille is a big name is racing from a while back, but Antigravity Batteries is way out in front of Braille for the last couple year in terms of Battery technology and safety, and they are way less expensive too for some reason. I had been using Braille until about 3 years ago... but Antigravity has the Full Battery Management System (BMS) that Braille has never got around to doing and I don't know why since their batteries are twice as much in cost. The BMS is the main brains of the Battery and controls it from being damaged, and makes is much safer than something like Braille that doesn't have any protections, I learned all about that during my research each time I look for a new battery. Then Antigravity added the Wiresless built in Jump Starting and that was super cool so I have stayed with them and not had any issues at all.

As far as lithium batteries... the key factor in todays batteries are making sure they have the full Battery management system. This protects the batteries from being over-discharged ,for example leaving your lights on, and from over-charge which are both the reasons for potential fires and also for the battery failing. Then also though the batteries work fine in you Cars charging system you want to make sure you are using a Lithium Charger if you are using a aftermaret stand alone Charger/Maitainer... because the Lead/Acid type can incorrectly charge a Lithium Battery.

Otherwise I am now sticking with Lithium and put them in my Cars when the lead acid fails. A bit more costly but I saved 30 to 38 pounds each time I swapped... and the starting was better and I have not had one really fail except when I put a very small one in my track car.

 

Which one do you use for Ferraris, 24, 30, 40 or 60 AMPS? And they last 2 to 3 times more than a concentional barety menaing from 6 to 9 years? Thank you!

 

Go as large as you can.

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You have to wonder if Ferrari planned to have the weight of the original battery in the car when designing the car and if that extra weight from the lead battery is beneficial being there....

 

I have an Antigravity battery in my Porsche, which I use as a daily. The battery is mounted high up, just under the windshield, so while I also wondered if Porsche designed the car expecting a 50 lb. weight up there, I didn’t hesitate to swap it out for the much lighter Antigravity, as it helps lower the center of gravity. Especially because it comes in H6 direct swap size.

The battery in a 458 (or 360/430), on the other hand, is mounted low in the car, below the passenger footrest, where it has less negative influence on handling. And being that low, it might actually help keep the car’s center of gravity low. So while there are great benefits to the lithium ion battery besides low weight, I’m not as anxious to swap, but likely will, once my current battery ages out.


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Usually, you get what you pay for in my experience.

Take 18650 flashlight batteries, for example. You can find batteries from just a couple bucks clear up to $25 each - and there can be a pretty big difference in quality based on cost and where they are manufactured (usually depending on being made in China vs. Japan).

I don't know which cells or what chemistry is being used in Antigravity vs. Braille, but usually cells which employ a BMS do so in part because there is more of a risk of damage present due to either being over charged and/or from being discharged too much. By contrast, batteries without a BMS are typically using cells which are higher quality and thus more resistant and tolerate of this. For me, the fact that Braille doesn't use a BMS is actually more of a testament to the quality of the cells being used than anything else.

Also, the Antigravity batteries seem to have some sort of jumpstart technology built in - which is fine. However, my guess is that to accomplish that, they would have to be using capacitors inside of the battery in conjunction with their BMS for that. I could be wrong, but that would be my guess from an electrical engineering standpoint.

On my 458, I thought about playing around with this same idea, by adding some large capacitors in parallel with the Braille in order to handle the sudden high amp current draw when starting the car. In fact, if you check on YouTube there are some pretty good videos where guys use strictly a large bank of capacitors (and nothing else) to totally replace their car batteries. Again, nothing wrong with that, but I have to wonder if part of what Antigravity is doing is putting a few large capacitors in front of their lithium battery cells in order to offload some of the demands from the battery cells to the capacitors? This could also potentially reduce the actual number of lithium cells needed, and thus the overall costs.

Again, I don't have any first hand information either way - as far as why one is more expensive or what's going on inside - but I would look to differences in price, quality (or quantity) of the cells being used as well as the possibly of what role the "jump-start" technology plays here and how that's actually accomplished from a hardware standpoint.

For me the durability, design quality and individual lithium cell robustness are most important. Cost savings is fine too - and some limited differences might be okay for street use - but if you are competing in the 24 hours of Le Mans or some other critical situation, it might be more important to have the absolute best and most durable design money can buy. For me personally, I feel like that's Braille - and, at least when it comes to the Ferraris, that's what I personally select. For some of the other vehicles I own, I do use other brands, such as Odyssey, etc. to save money and where absolute top quality isn't as critical.

As mentioned, I don't have any first hand experience with using Antigravity batteries, but they look interesting for sure.

Ray

 

Gotta disagree with you there Ray!

All complex lithium battery systems should include a BMS! Shows the designers have made a modern system if they have implemented it correctly.

Never count on the quality of cells. They can vary for everyone! I know too well!

I too will likely install an Antigravity battery in the next replacement cycle.

Lower mass always favored over lower CG!

SV


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Sure, no problem

I still think it would be nice to open up both batteries and see what's going on inside.

Ray

 

Another thing to note here with regard to BMS vs. no BMS:

A Battery Management System is usually most important when you are charging Lithium cells very close to 100% of their max allowable voltage - for example with a solar home system or something along those lines. Or with a Tesla or something, where cramming in and squeezing out every last Joule of energy is desired. When this is the case, then sure, you do need some sort of system that can individually monitor and manage the power packs at a per cell level in order to ensure that no specific Lithium cells end up over charged and/or to identify problematic cells, etc.

However, when dealing with a non-smart battery situation, primary designed just start your car, that isn't really going to be the same situation.

Depending on battery chemistry of the Lithium cells being used, the nominal individual cell voltage can range anywhere from 3.6V to 3.85V and the max charge voltage can range anywhere between 4.1 or 4.2 volts to 4.4 volts.

So just do the math on the lowest end of the scale:

4 x 3.6 volt = 14.4 volts (nominal voltage)
4 x 4.1 volt = 16.4 volts (max voltage charge)

If your Lithium Ion car battery is using 4 lithium cells - all wired up together in series - per bank, then each bank's nominal voltage would range from any place from 14.4 volts on the low end to as much as 15.4 volts on the high end (again, dependent on the specific chemical makeup of the individual cells being used). More importantly, with regard to using or not using a BMS, this means that the max charge voltage per bank - again, 4 individual Lithium Ion cells wired up in series - would range anywhere from 16.4 volts to 17.6 volts. Given that your car is dealing with around 12 or 13 volts on average, you have a pretty large margin of safety built in here simply by design.

So what does this mean as far as "Do I really need a BMS involved?"

Well, again, given that the car's charging system is generally operating based on around 12.75 volts - and given that the car's alternator is regulated down to providing a max voltage input to the electrical system of around 14.5 volts at its peak, it's pretty easy to see that you are dealing with a charging situation that has little to no potential of over charging any individual Lithium battery cell to anywhere near its max allowable voltage rating. Even at maximum alternator output, the charging system would be hard pressed to produce peak nominal voltage levels (let alone max voltage levels) of even the lowest grade, common / garden-variety Lithium cell.

So saying something like, "All battery systems should require a BMS" is kind of painting the situation with a rather broad brush in my opinion.

Ray

 

Normally isn’t where BMS shines. It is the abnormal. Aging, temp and charging curves are built into the sw and used to judge the health of the battery system. All parameters are actively monitored.

Should a cell prove defective it can alert and sometimes isolate the cell (in the best implementations).

For the cost of car why would anyone settle for less??

Just mvho.

SV

 

Yes, I can't argue with you there. A system to monitor batteries does no harm and can definitely be very helpful should something go off track.

Ray

 

Interesting discussion and I suppose we won’t know answers unless and until someone opens up both batteries and looks inside.
I will add only that having BMS as a safety system is not any more an indication of the battery’s quality or lack thereof than a car having airbags and seatbelts is an indicator that it is more prone to crashing than one without them. It could be that the BMS is just there as an added feature, not that it’s needed because it’s more prone to failure.


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I don’t know what the Braille battery incorporates as far as battery management.

I use the word quality as an expression of its engineering quality. The developers clearly understand what they need to do and they have added at least one nifty feature in the fail safe start.

Someone at the company gets it...

SV


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Something I learned from researching house batteries for my sailboat is there is no such thing as a drop-in lithium ion replacement for any kind of lead acid battery, including an AGM.

From what I've learned even LiFePO4 batteries are dangerous if not managed properly. The trickle chargers are different for a reason, and the voltage regulation in a 458/488 is designed for an AGM battery. I'd never put a lithium battery in a car not designed for it.

 

Give us a pointer to your research??

SV


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If you google why Lithium Ion batteries require pulse charging, you can find some good information. In simple terms, the pulse cycles help to prevent dendrite formation, which can be dangerous for Lithium based batteries.

When it comes to using a normal battery charger with a Lithium Ion battery, it's true that that's a bad idea. This is because a normal car battery charger outputs flat DC current at a constant voltage level (i.e. no pulses).

However, with regard to your car's electrical system, this isn't true. Your car uses an A/C alternator - driven by the motor - and it outputs an alternating sine wave form, which is more pulse-like in nature. It might not be a perfect DC square wave, like your Lithium style charger probably uses, but it's pretty close.

With your car, the alternator's electrical sine wave is sent through a rectifier, which prevents electrons from moving backwards in the charging circuit. This allows A/C current to mimic DC current to some degree, even though it's not strict DC flat / constant voltage output. Normally, the rectifier does not mitigate the pulsing effect of the original electrical waveform itself, so you still have a pulsing effect. I'd have to attach an Oscilloscope to the 458 to see the exact waveform vs. RPM's, but my guess is that the wide range of pulses probably does a decent enough job of preventing dendrite formation inside the battery.

So unless your car's electrical system employs some further form of AC to DC filtering, then the bottomline is that your car battery - be it AGM or Lithium - is going to still be receiving a pulsed charge. If your car used a strictly DC charging system (e.g. such as solar panels on the roof of your sailboat) then it wouldn't be a good idea to use a Lithium battery - but it doesn't, so you should be fine.

Ray

 

You're trying to compare Apples to Oranges here. The charging system on your sailboat is probably solar based correct? That means a constant DC output when the sun is up. Or you are using an inverter off the motor - which probably includes AC/DC filtering. And yes, that's not compatible with a direct connection to a Lithium Ion battery unless you have some BMS to provide a pulsed DC square wave output.

But this isn't how normal car electrical systems are setup, so you can't just make extrapolations regarding what battery is or isn't okay to use in your Ferrari based on what you know about your sailboat or solar panels.

Ray

 

I came back from a two week jaunt, and the 458 wouldn’t start. It had been giving me some occasional error on the display, so I figured the battery was close to the end. I had planned to take it to an Indy, but it ended up being a DIY project instead.

I put in an Interstate. Cost with tax and core return about $180. If it lasts three years, I’ll be happy. Not a huge deal to replace it yourself. And yes, I do use a CTEK battery tender, but use the car most days anyway. However, it does roast here in FL in summers; that’ll put a drain on anything.

 

You ppl know way more about the technical elements of this...I just think ferrari/electronics/you never know just do it like they did it from the factory and keep the OEM battery. Would love to drop some pounds and have a better product, but I choose to OEM this part of the ownership experience, perhaps incorrectly

 

Here are some notes that a well regarded ocean navigator and engineer (his company developed the fake first down lines for football games on tv) Stan Honey put together when he put a lithium house bank on his personal cruising boat.

http://honeynav.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/LFP-battery-Stan-Honey-notes.pdf

The basics:

1) Lithium batteries have huge charge acceptance and current capacity. They take and put out whatever current is put in or asked for. Many alternators are not designed for this and burn themselves up when presented with such low resistance.

2) It is dangerous to overcharge lithium batteries. A main purpose of a battery management system is to prevent this by disconnecting the charging source when voltage rises excessively while charging which indicates this danger. If the source is an alternator, open circuiting will destroy its diodes.

3) Lithium batteries like to be stored partially charged (see the description of "Optimized Battery Charging" on your iphone) which prolongs their life considerably. AGM lead acid batteries like to be stored topped up, so a maintenance charger keeps them that way, and also ready to be put to use starting the car. Storing a battery partially charged makes no sense for a starting battery.

 

All good information and the document by Stan was very informative for sure.

One additional thing to note is that due to its characteristics, a Lithium battery is usually much more capable of starting a car - even if only partially charged - than a comparable size AGM or lead acid battery is when not fully charged.

Before Lithium batteries became popular for cars, a lot of us used them on high performance motorcycles and found out first hand how well they worked. Anyone who has used both a normal battery in their Ferrari or motorcycle, as well as a Lithium Ion battery, can attest to this. As Keith points out above, lithium ion batteries can provide a lot of energy quickly when large demands are placed on them, even if not fully charged. This is parts of why your cell phone works fine clear down to 3% charge or why your Tesla doesn't need a 100% charge to drive on the highway.

Lithium Ion batteries work great for turning a starter, 100% charged or not; this isn't always the case with a normal car battery. Also, because Lithium batteries have a dramatically lower static discharge rate, they tend to preserve whatever charge they do have much longer. This becomes very important and an often overlooked factor if you aren't driving your Ferrari every day. This also allows you to be free from having to constantly use a battery tender, specifically because you can still start your car without needing a charge of 90% or 100% all the time.

You also have to take into consideration what is known as DOD or depth of discharge and how that differs between AGM vs. Lithium Ion. For an AGM battery it's generally only about 50% - meaning whatever battery capacity and charge levels you have, you can realistically only use about 50% of it. By contrast, Lithium Ion is more like 80%, which in terms of providing energy for a specific job (e.g. running a starter), this means you have available quite a bit more of whatever capacity is present.

Think of it like this:

If your car battery were your breakfast, then with a normal battery, you could only eat half the food on your plate. By contrast, with a Lithium Ion battery, you could enjoy all but the last 20% of your breakfast.

That's a big difference if you're hungry.

As far as alternator damage due to lower internal resistance, it could affect the diodes or something, but keep in mind it usually also reduces heat. You'd have to examine which specific alternator Ferrari uses and whether or not it includes any sort of self protection mechanism, etc. I can say that, in my experience, the charging system on the 458 Italia did seem to mesh a lot better with the Braille i48Cs than that of the 488 GTB.

Anyway, this thread has become really informative for anyone trying to decide which battery to run in their car.

Ray