Testarossa with 4,500 miles spewing black smoke after a lot of major work done | FerrariChat

Testarossa with 4,500 miles spewing black smoke after a lot of major work done

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by mfaisal, Jul 30, 2017.

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  1. mfaisal

    mfaisal Rookie

    Mar 19, 2017
    28
    Dubai
    Full Name:
    Mohamed Faisal
    Hi everyone,

    I am new to Ferrarichat and in need of help. I've been through these forums a lot and I can see that these forums are awesome and the community here is extremely helpful.

    First let's start with this Ferrari's story (You don't have to read this part):

    I absolutely love Ferraris (doesn't everyone?) and hope that I can always own one. This Testarossa belonged to my and he acquired it in the early 90s, he purchased it from the dealer in Bahrain and sent it over to Dubai where we live. It's a 1991 US Spec Testarossa with very low miles (not a good thing, I know) that has barely done 500 miles over the last ten years. When my father purchased the car he enjoyed it for a few years (Up till 1999), after that it just kept having problems along with escalating repair bills and constant trips to the garage that he just got fed up with it and left it in a garage for a few years, he was always very busy and as he got older never had the time to put into the car because of work. I have to add that the heat in Dubai during the day doesn't help when you are driving this car around.

    During around 2007 the car was taken back to Bahrain so that it could be stored and serviced there. This is because the Ferrari dealers/agents in Bahrain are much more reasonable than the ones in Dubai, really it's actually quite a big difference (An engine out service in Bahrain would cost $7,500 while in Dubai it would cost a minimum of $12,500). It was then occasionally (~7 times a year) driven around before developing problems with the gearbox, it was still drivable but wouldn't shift properly because the clutch was old and the gearbox needed maintenance.

    My father then got fed up with car and just wanted to sell it at any price. I didn't want him to because he used to drive my brother and I around in it when we were kids and the car just has so much sentimental value to the both of us, and it is a Ferrari that I absolutely love and just couldn't let it go. After months of persuasion my father gave me the car and left me with these words: You can have it, but it's going to be such a headache. Boy, was he right! (In the end, fathers are always right)

    I received the car in the middle of 2016, at that point hadn't started in a year or two and the dealer in Bahrain got it running and in state in which it could be tested and registered for $1,500. The car was functional and I was able to drive the car around for 20 minutes over a short distance without any major problems, someone told me that I was very lucky and that was a dangerous thing to do because the timing belt could've snapped (It was changed ten years ago) and I would've had to replace the engine... I now know that they were right. I lucked out and nothing bad happened.

    I shipped the car back to Dubai and took it to a garage over here that I trust and I decided that I wanted to get my hands dirty while getting this car back into shape because I wanted to learn about engines in general and be involved with this car as much as possible so that I could understand it and be an involved and responsible owner (I make daily trips to the garage).

    What was done to the car (Please read this part):

    When I received the car it was in a bad state physically and mechanically. It needed a lot of work done:

    - The paint (the paint was shot and there were rust specks on the car and a blot of rust on the front hood, so it had to have the rust removed and was repainted)
    - The gearbox (the clutch was so stiff you could barely depress it, so it was replaced and the other elements polished)
    - The engine (It's been sitting for so long that almost all the gaskets,seals, and belts needed to be replaced. I replaced almost every single thing made out of rubber or plastic in the engine bay)
    - Air Intake (All the rubber collars and clamps were very very stiff and the air intake chamber completely disintegrated... I'm serious I think I have a photo of that somewhere)
    - All the vacuum hoses needed to be replaced
    - The engine mounts were changed
    - All the spark plugs were changed and tested
    - All the HT cables/leads were replaced
    - Almost all the filters in the car were replaced (Some such as the vacuum pump air filter I could not find)
    - The suspension bearings and bushes were replaced (Anything rubber in the suspension was replaced)
    - The fuel pumps/accumulators/filters were replaced (The fuel pumps failed after being pulled out and put back)
    - The fuel injectors were all replaced
    - The water pump seals were all replaced
    - The fuel lines were cleaned
    - The fuel distributors were cleaned
    - Most of the cosmetic rubber inserts were replaced because the were worn out or cracking
    - The brake discs were polished and the brake pads changed
    - The rear left brake pad was stuck pressing on the disc and needed to be removed and rebuilt
    - The car had compression tests performed and all was OK

    I hope I'm not missing anything in this part. Please bear in mind that before I started working on this car I knew the very basics of how an engine worked and none of the details, but I am happy to say that I have learned a lot doing this and still have a very long way to go.

    The issues I'm having along with the details:

    1) After a few months of work and a lot of money spent we tried starting the car and it was misfiring with a lot of black smoke. The oil smelled like it had fuel in it, I hoped that it wasn't the piston rings or the valve seals/guides because then we would have to lower the engine again and open it up completely this time, and I'm sure everyone here knows how much that would cost. So we started our process of elimination. The first time they started it up I wasn't there. They told me that there was black smoke but that after the car heated up it was fine.

    2) We suspected it might've been the injectors. Some of the injectors were leaking and so I decided to go ahead and replace them all.

    3) The car was still misfiring so we cleaned the distributors and tested the injectors again and we were convinced we had good pressure. Still misfiring.

    4) We were lucky that there was another Testarossa (1990 US Spec) in the garage at the same time, we tried switching parts between them such as the vacuum pump, ECU, and some other minor filters and lines. The other Testarossa would always run perfect and mine would just misfire.

    5) We removed the vacuum air line from the left intake manifold and realized that there was backpressure in the intake manifold and so it must be a problem with the air intake. We thought this because we compared this to the other 1990 Testarossa that was in the garage at the same time. The other car would run with the vacuum line disconnected with no issues, mine would just shut down.

    6) We removed the air intake manifold and saw that the throttle body wasn't opening, we removed it, examined it, cleaned and lubricated it, and it was now functioning well. The backpressure issue was solved, but the black smoke issue was not.

    7) At this point we tried adjusting the fuel mixture but there was still a lot of black smoke and the problem was still there.

    8) My mechanic informs me that when after they put the engine back (Before we started testing the car), he filled it up with ~12 liters of oil, he drained the oil today and there was only ~6 liters left. He suspects it could be the piston rings or the valve seals/guides and we would need to bring the engine down and open it up to solve this problem.

    Now, my question to you guys is: Could it be anything else? Is there anything that I am missing? Or am I going to have to open up the engine?

    Any suggestions or help would be very much appreciated, I have included all the information I remember, so please forgive me if it turns out that I forgot something. I understand that this post is very long but I wanted to include all the information that I had on the car that I love.

    Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Chief20123

    Chief20123 Karting

    Dec 22, 2012
    169
    Melbourne,Australia
    Full Name:
    Fred
    Used 6 litres of oil while testing it? wow, Is the oil pressure ok?
     
  3. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,402
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    Black smoke usually indicates a rich fuel mixture, blue smoke indicates oil burning. About the loss of 6 liters of oil, I don't know how that much oil could be lost so quickly. I would say your mechanic needs to do a compression leak-down test on the cylinders, that will tell you if there are any issues with the valves or piston rings.
     
  4. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,934
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    #4 turbo-joe, Jul 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
    as jeff says: black smoke is fuel, blue is oil

    but 6 ltr. oil consumption on how many km? if this oil is burned then the car would be a fog bowler for the military :)

    and even with only 6 ltr you still have oil pressure when you go straight with steady speed
     
  5. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,829
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Christian
    If you burned 6 quarts in a short amount of time..........you didnt dive it it enough. Sorry.

    Any car needs to be ran to prevent dryrot etc. I may not put a lot of miles on my car but she is given a full shake down bi weekly. That way I know exactly what is needed.

    Bite the bullet and get her road ready. Not cheep, bet she deserves the best.
     
  6. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 27, 2014
    10,215
    Virginia/Florida/Caymans
    Full Name:
    JD
    You have changed a lot of things that may be creating the problem that you are experiencing. Let's start with the compression test. You mentioned that it was ok and based on that the engine was not disassembled. Now the mechanic feels the engine needs to be taken apart (more on that in a moment). If the compression test was ok (and a leakdown test should have been performed) that would suggest a problem in the fuel delivery, ignition or the belt service.

    It is really great to have another working Testarossa nearby to compare things to. Since the engine is back in the car.....they should be able to check each ignition wire and injector to make sure they are working correctly. He should pull the spark plugs and see what they look like. There is no way that the engine burned six liters of oil while in the shop. For that to happen oil would be pouring down the valve guides or passing the piston control rings in a very big way. The latter would have shown up on the leak down compression test.

    I'm suspicious of the belt service. If the engine ran ok before the service.....my bet is the belt installation might be off. If the wiring and fuel delivery checks out .......it is the only thing left. Also, I am presuming that you drained the fuel tank and that the fuel in it is new.

    I hope that helps...congratulations on the car and it is great that you are treating it as a life learning experience.
     
  7. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,402
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    INRange makes a very good point about the fuel in the tank being old. You don't want that stuff going through the fuel distributors, etc. Gotta find out where all that oil went...
     
  8. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    5,267
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    Could it be the oil level was checked after sitting? The TR needs its oil level checked after it was just running.
     
  9. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    +1
     
  10. ozziindaus

    ozziindaus F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 16, 2012
    9,799
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Sam
    As stupid as this sounds, could the mechanic have put in diesel fuel instead? Doesn't explain the lost oil but then again, nothing else really does.
     
  11. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    two issues fuel and oil, which should be addressed independently from each other

    the oil issue needs a reset, start with an oil change and filter, verify that everything is set at proper levels before moving on to other possible causes... being 6 quarts low with no signs of a major leak of oil on the floor and limited use to indicate excessive consumption could have been a simple error by the mechanics involved...

    black smoke is usually a fuel rich indication with a lot of unburned fuel passing through , the motor... need to revisit the injectors for proper operation, installing them without a verified clean fuel system may have only clogged them again, the entire system needs to be cleaned and new fuel installed before further assessments

    it seems that service work was done in a haphazard random manner, allowing "old" issues to foul any new work... just bad procedures
     
  12. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Dumb question but are you sure the smoke is *black* (vs blue)? You mention black smoke earlier, but you also mentioned that you don't know much about engines (therefore maybe you think all smoke is black or white).

    If it's actually blue that might help with the cause of the disappearing oil problem, although blowing 6 quarts out your exhaust would definitely be noticeable on whatever was behind your car! Try this. Run the car and put a gloved hand behind the exhaust (not close enough to get burned of course). Run for a few seconds then turn car off. Then look at what has collected on your hand. Oil? Gas? Water? That could help troubleshoot.
     
  13. mfaisal

    mfaisal Rookie

    Mar 19, 2017
    28
    Dubai
    Full Name:
    Mohamed Faisal
    #13 mfaisal, Aug 1, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thank you everyone for all your answers and support. It is very much appreciated.

    In order for this to be helpful to others on the forum I am going to be documenting and uploading everything I can so that this thread can be useful to others in the future.

    Now, to answer your questions and make a few corrections:

    - The car didn't use up 6 quarts of oil, it used closer to 4 (still very bad I know)
    - The oil pressure was fine but more on that below
    - When the car was started up it used to spew out blue smoke which would turn to black, and yes it was quite bad and the smoke slightly stained the wall in the garage after it dissipated
    - A compression test was performed but a leakdown test was not performed
    - We had pulled out the spark plugs and checked the injector lines again. All was OK
    - The fuel tank and fuel lines were all cleaned and the fuel was replaced prior to starting up the car the first time
    - We checked the Oil before and after we started it up the first time and it was OK
    - No Diesel Fuel it was petrol for sure
    - The belts/cams were all lined up properly. We checked and double checked.
    - I have to add that when we checked the oil it had the smell of fuel and discerned that the fuel was seeping into the oil from somewhere
    - We didn't finish the brake rebuild yet, but I need help with that and will start another thread
    - Something I need to add, this car was only ever serviced at Ferrari dealers/agents before I received it.

    Sorry if there's anything I forgot to answer or add. After looking at all this information and knowing that the car was just sitting for many years, I decided that it was time to pull out the engine... this is where the good stuff (or really bad stuff) starts:

    - We get to the camshaft and inspect it and realize the the caps had been opened before and been bolted back on in different places, the car would still work but it was a very unprofessional job
    - The the right bank cam caps and the area where they should be bolted on all had numbers stamped/engraved on them (not from the factory as the left bank didn't have this)
    - The area around both the left bank and right bank rockers looked as though they had some grinding done to them (Why would someone do that?)
    - The was some grinding above some rockers (As I was looking at this there was only one thought on my mind: Why the hell would someone do this?!)
    - We open up the left cylinder bank and it doesn't look too good, slight oil leak, the gasket had completely disintegrated, the only things left were the metal rings from the gaskets; it looks like it had been opened before with the same gasket reused (what a disaster)
    - We open up the right cylinder bank which also had a disintegrated gasket, but this time we see that the cylinders are all badly leaking oil.

    I am attaching photos of all this to this post. I asked my dad about the car and he confirmed he never asked for the internals (gaskets/rings/rockers/etc...) to be serviced and was never told that they needed to be. One thing to note that garages in Dubai in the 1990s were absolutely horrible, even if they were dealers. What we are seeing is a product of this (The car/garage culture has improved a lot since then)

    What I am going to do now:

    - Replace all the piston rings
    - Have the valves tested to see if they were leaking
    - Replace all the internal engine oil seals and gaskets
    - Replace the valve seals

    Should I do anything else while I'm in there?
    Any recommendations or tips would be appreciated.

    Thank you again for all your help.
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  14. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,934
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    to replace the piston rings you have to open the engine housing. then you just replace the the main and rod bearings
    may be you need only the std size? meassure !
    and of course new bolts/screws for the rods
    meassure also the piston clearance in the sleeves, if out of limit it makes no sense to replace only the rings. but only 4500 miles ? unusual
     
  15. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 27, 2014
    10,215
    Virginia/Florida/Caymans
    Full Name:
    JD
    At the risk of this being taken wrong......the original diagnostic by your mechanic was incomplete. A leak down test would have shown the internals were problematic and you would not have wasted your time/money trying to make it work.

    I can't tell from the photos if the engine has been opened up before. The grinding marks look like deburring marks from the casting process....nothing to be concerned about. These engines were all hand assembled back in the day from a bin of parts so what is important comes down to fit and alignment. Don't be mislead by opinions and observations by your mechanic(s). Post the pictures of the inside of the case when they open it up.....before they clean it.
     
  16. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,632
    Dubai / Bologna
    I am also in Dubai and have restored my '91 TR from the ground up and in doing so have committed most of it to memory over the 9 years I have owned it (I do all the service myself). I totally agree with your comment concerning the poor state of service here. The things I found in my 91 when I bought it were laughable if it was not so tragic.

    Some of the Bosch injection components found on my car such as accumulators were never designed for the car, you never know what others jammed in place when the OEM parts were scarce or expensive. The injectors on my car were an issue. I replaced mine but cleaned the original set in case I needed spares. It takes less excess fuel then you think to get it to run sooty rich; on my KE jetronic car even oxygen sensors can make a difference.

    I am around most weekends if you want a second set of eyes. As for the oil level, be wary of overfilling it. If it ran as poorly as you say, you probably shut the engine off before it got to temp. As it is a dry sump motor it is really easy to overfill it.
     
  17. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,388
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Looking at the pictures..you have a mixture control problem. That car is dumping fuel. Unfortunaly I think you pulled this engine a part for no reason. A good set of fuel gauges and a basic understanding of the k-jet system in these cars could have saved you a bundle of time and money. I honestly don't think you have a mechanical issue. You have a management issue.
     
  18. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    Do you have any video of it running before the teardown?
     
  19. mfaisal

    mfaisal Rookie

    Mar 19, 2017
    28
    Dubai
    Full Name:
    Mohamed Faisal


    Do you think that a fuel management issue could've caused the right bank cylinders to leak so much?

    Thanks for the help.
     
  20. mfaisal

    mfaisal Rookie

    Mar 19, 2017
    28
    Dubai
    Full Name:
    Mohamed Faisal


    Yes I do. But I think it was taken from the inside of the car a year and a half ago. I'll try to find it and post it.
     
  21. mfaisal

    mfaisal Rookie

    Mar 19, 2017
    28
    Dubai
    Full Name:
    Mohamed Faisal
  22. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,128
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    # 1 and # 2 seem alright to me .... # 3 .... mmmm
     

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