I'm all too aware of that. It appears to me that 0384 as it stands today consists of a replica car and a crate of rusted out unusable original parts. Perhaps someone that has been 'hands on' with 0384 recently can shed some more light on what remains?
You asked and here it is. This is the picture of the engine number. You can clearly see the new stamps are not correct. And to think it has been reported in the Judgement from the UK court that Swaters paid in excess of 600,000.00 for that. WHAT? This is an original Ferrari engine but is it original to #0384? You decide....... oh do you see the number #2 underneath? You already know what I think! I will try to find the engine pictures taken when it was in Michigan. I have them...... but I have to go thru boxes of info to find them. Image Unavailable, Please Login
You clearly do not understand race engines and how they are swapped and restamped. I recommend you listen to people who actually know what they are talking about and on the chassis
there are hundreds of cases of successful return of property stolen during WW2, overturning rulings by local European courts saying otherwise... just because a UK court accepts a ruling from another jurisdiction does not mean the opinion made was correct...
I made that point before. Not very much was used to 'replicate' 0384. It does not exist. If you argue otherwise, what about the parts, the frame, the body? Perry
Mhhhh, I am afraid I don't get it. If the existing 0384 suddenly is considered to be more or less a replica what is all that fuzz about?
Dear Mr. Kim, It appears that YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND that The Ferrari Factory does NOT Stamp with varying type and size stamps on the 375 as portrayed in the engine photo that I provided. I have read what Marcel Massini wrote, he did NOT say that was the THE ORIGINAL Engine that came in the car. He just said engine plus spare engine. Mr. Massini did refer to the dozen old rims .. well, I shall post a picture of those same old rims in 1954 inside the Kimberly Primus bus.( lets have some fun with this!) Note: if you look at the right side on the tire sidewall it is written 4.9 practice. Shaughnessy recognizes that there is another number under the over stamped engine. Shaughnessy also states that renumbering cars and engine were done by the factory in period. I dont see where he states this is an original factory over stamp. The Ferrari Factory has Ferrari Factory stamps. The original stamp is quite distinctive in size and structure. Also, the strike pressure for the original is obvious. Its very clear the 03 is original (including the correct height and width along with the proper spacing and above all style of stamp). Now look at the /AM ..that also is original ( including the correct and proper height, width, and spacing and style of stamp). It is more than obvious that the 84 is alien and NOT a factory issue. If you prefer to believe it is FACTORY, then that is fine. But, please dont try to push your beliefs on me. I see an engine that was a factory built 12 cylinder but that is all. It is clear to me that you are trying very hard to convince people that the engine is original to the car. On the other hand, I recognize that the readers are far more astute than you give them credit for .. so I think they can decide for themselves. Just one more reason the buyer is entitled to a full refund on this purchase. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Some questions on the engine: 1. Have the internal numbers been checked to the build sheets? 2. Were spare 375+ motors built in period by Ferrari? 3. Since renumbering in period was done as cars moved across borders to match paperwork should one be expecting that the stampings to be looking the same? I would expect there to be examples that can be referenced. 4. As I remember the story, the engine sold to Swaters came from someone that had the known engine that came from the car dating back to Kimberly/Hively. Is there reason to reasonably believe that this engine is not that engine? Jeff
Jeff, interesting questions and I am able to provide some information that may help piece together the history on the "original engine". My understanding is that Terry Myre acquired the engine from Kirk White Motor Cars Inc in 1971 and owned it until he sold to Swaters in April 2009. Prior to his acquisition, Swaters asked a well respected Ferrari expert and historian to inspect and report on the engine to ensure it was genuine. The expert noted the following details: The engine was dismantled but complete and all of the components were in good condition apart from the mechanical fuel pump that had damaged drive teeth. He also concluded that all of the stampings were of the correct type and cipher used by Ferrari during the period of construction and that the block had been clearly over-stamped 0384/AM over 0392/AM. He also recommended that Ferrari should be able to check these over-stampings from their records. I do not know if Swaters ever did this but I assume that if he was spending $500,000 + on an engine he would have done so (remembering also his caution on insisting on an Xray of the chassis). The bore was measured at 84mm and the stroke 74mm which the expert confirmed corresponded with the Factory Spec. Interestingly, the original engine in 0392 is listed as being swapped for an F1 engine in November 1954 (and an American block later) to compete in the Carrera Panamericana and this could explain why the block was available and may have ended up in 0384. Given that 0384 campaigned from April the same year, the question is was the block swapped or could it have been a spare motor renumbered ? In the first season (1954) 0384 had a DNF at Le Mans which may have sent it back to the factory for a rebuild before being shipped out to Kimberley in the US and in the following year (1955) I counted four DNF and one DNS off Barcetta any of which could also have prompted an engine rebuild The following internal numbers were noted. Block - stamped 0384/AM over 0392/AM. Numero interno 208 and casting number 275 10336 Cylinder Heads - 102 F 94 right side and 102 F 61 left side Bellhousing - stamped V5 in two places and casting number 10342 Sump - stamped 3 on corner of the external base Timing Casing - stamped 16 or possibly 16? Pistons - Mondial Co. logo and 921 Rocker Cradles - Set 1: 439,440,441,442,443,444 and Set 2: 421,422,423,424,425,426 Magnetos - both stamped 5507 and one stamped 225 and the other 229 Carburettors - Triple Weber stamped 46 DCF 3 and numbered 147,148,and 151 I have no detailed records or build sheets for 0392 or 0384 but it would be interesting to indentify the components and history KIM
Dear Kim, The answers to your questions can be found in the attachment. Sent to:The Honorable Justice Flaux. Sent by: Christian, the owner/partner who paid 50,000.00 for the 375 Plus #0384. Date of the correspondence: 10/18/2015 There is a lot of information pertaining to this subject that you are not aware of. Yes, I did present an investment package for a fee to Christian on 1/1989. Some prefer to call it a brokerage. Yes, Christian bought and paid for the car in front of four witnesses that same day. Image Unavailable, Please Login
So, are you claiming that Kleve had come to possess 0384 in a manner where the prior owner claimed ownership rights? Also, are claiming no ownership rights for yourself?
Guy, pesky details I know but who is Christian Hollinger (or even Micheal Christian in your email) ? You testified under oath the car was sold to an elusive "Frenchman Giles Christian" who the FBI, tried but could never find. You may think a vague email is all the documentation you need but you are going to need more to explain why this new story and your business partner was concealed from both the FBI, the Judge and ultimately the hung jury who could not reach a verdict
Greetings, It is obvious that the number on the engine has been altered. And altered badly! That awful stamp was punched using stamps that are completely foreign to Factory Ferrari stamps as you can see. Try to imagine Ferrari doing such a horrible job. The engine for #0384 would be #0384 without any other number or over stamp. I remember having read that the car in question had an original engine. Was that an original engine type or the original engine for the car? To be certain, I will review the Octane magazine and the Bonhams sales description to see if I just read it wrong. If it states that the car on offer features its original engine than that would be another reason that the buyer would be entitled to a full refund plus damages and compound interest. I will attach the Factory Ferrari build sheet so you can draw your own conclusions. This build sheet was a part of the sales packet included in the sale of #0384 in Jan 1989. The late Ferrari guru Gerald Roush stated to the seller that the original engine #0384 was installed in a race boat. The spare $9,000.00 Ferrari engine was mentioned in the June 1955 Popular Science article still sitting in the shipping crate located in the Kimberly boathouse in Neenah, Wisconsin. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Dear Kim, You really know less than I first imagined. I must ask, why do you continue to try to comprehend what happened in 1989 at my trial when you were not a part of that equation ? Lets begin with your statement that; the FBI tried but could not find the French buyer. That statement is absurd! The FBI did not want to find the Frenchman Mr. Christian. Christian would be the fourth witness against the FBI case! I will post page #249 where the lead Attorney was questioning Special Agent May on cross. Line #4 answer from the FBI agent in charge, STATED: He got a telephone number for me, yes. He meaning Guy Anderson and me meaning S.A. May of the FBI. That telephone number was for Christian in Lyon, France and the FBI did speak to his wife. You do know that Interpol is based in Lyon, France do you not? So one call to Interpol and the FBI secures the address of Christian in less than a few minutes using the home phone I supplied. Within minutes Interpol can tell the FBI what Passport number Christian has. Within minutes Interpol could have called the wife of Christian to established the exact whereabouts of her husband. Your last sentence about a hung Jury, concealment to the FBI and the Judge is proof you dont even have your facts correct. You should report back to Bonhams and have them fix this mess. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Guy, we can all read the Court transcript and form an opinion on what was said. What I and I am sure others, cannot comprehend is why you testify under oath the car was purchased by the mercurial Giles Christian, then subsequently claim it was a Giles Hollinger and then finally present an email from a Michael Christian. No wonder the FBI and Interpol were confused
Oh Boy . You are one funny man and that is for sure. I must admit, I just cant get over this British Humor .. it is great. So lets talk about Ocean Joe since you are so insistent on bringing him up. I cant agree with British Law as to why they assess court participants fines for arguing their position. It seems to me that type of justice could ultimately become an injustice. So is justice only available for those who can afford it? Then the winner in this convoluted affair will then be the buyer. In reading the findings of the court I find many inconsistencies that Ocean Joe should hammer home. 1) How did the Ferrari hulk make it to Europe? chain of ownership 2) If the UK courts rule that Kruch passed title to Swaters and Anderson did NOT pass title to Kruch then how is chain of ownership complete? 3) We now know Anderson originally sent the Hulk to himself using his friend and business associate Michel Kruchs address. It was also know that Kruch was only an investor in the Ferrari #0384 project. 4) Anderson made it known to Kruch the hulk was not listed Stolen on the 13 of March 1989. Anderson told Kruch on that day he was going to defend that fact. So why did Francorchamp change the VIN? Does a VIN change in Europe constitute a crime? If a Ferrari dealer /distributor cant request a Build Sheet from the mother company, then why submit testimony referencing journalist mistakes regarding a nonexistent number 0394. 3) The FAKE manufactured Bill Of Sale. What party included that fake document as evidence in Ohio? Was it OC or BC? Was it Daniels, Kleve, Lancksweert or Swaters ? Was that document admitted into evidence by the BC? Did the OC have a copy prior to this event? 4) Where is the 340,000.00 roadster Ferrari 250 that Kleve was given by Daniels in lieu of cash? Since when does phantom vehicle become proof of payment? That would be so easy to prove or disprove. 5) Where is the Bank payment from Daniels to Kleve? Daniels gets paid by check via POA signature .. so where is the Kleve check. Say it was paid in cash then where is the withdrawal check to issue the cash. 6) Why did Lancksweert contact Kruch for a meeting with Anderson in 1998. What was that meeting about and what was discussed at Chateau Elan in Winder Georgia. (1998) 7) Kleve died in 2003 and in 2004 Lancksweert transferred a position to Swaters for how many millions? 8) Why was the Ferrari ID #0394 maintained even after the BC claims they purchased title from Kleve? 9) Why were the documents notarized by Kleve on a separate page and not on the bottom of an original document? 10) Why New York and not Cincinnati? Daniels was from Florida, Lancksweert was from Belgium, working in California and Kleve was living in Cincinnati. 11) Why did the BC not initiate suit with Nick Ackerman in New York against Kleve and the spare parts since that is where the supposedly conclusion of a sale took place. 12) Who gave Zanotti the idea of holding up the sale? Why did the consignees agree to pay and did anyone else benefit from such a maneuver? Zanotti implied the engine was stolen from him. Was that the awful over stamped number #0384 or the other ID stamp underneath? This should be fun. Hey Kim, maybe you would like to try to assist Ocean Joe by answering some of these pesky questions.
Guy I'm afraid the only two things we can agree on is that British humour is GREAT (funny how gurus love their CAPS) and the English legal system favours the wealthy. Your long list of questions ignore the fact that based upon the evidence the Court and Court of Appeal have determined that Swaters owns the car and spares. Your fabricated interest in the car and huffing and puffing are ignored by the Court because the documentation (including a legal agreement between Kruch and Swaters) prove otherwise. You are far more qualified to assist Joe Ford in his "game changing" plans then me. For me the "pesky questions" remain why he turned down 50% of the proceeds in favour of litigation in an English Court and why Wexner believed his case without question rather than keep the car and sort it out with Bonhams
Apologise for what ? You had a choice and I have never understood why you (the OC) did not accept the 50% share in the HoA and work with the BC in order to maximise the value of the car. I do not accept your arguments that Swaters was the one that was trying to wreck the HoA and the "proof", either way, will come in the Court hearing in two weeks. Apart from earlier posts, I asked in person this same question in the London Court and you replied "that one day you would tell me the truth" Until then it is a mystery. It has been suggested that you were unhappy with the 50% negotiated by Gardner and wanted to renegotiate 70%. Allen Markleson support this "new negotiation" theory in his statement that you told him you were seeking a "new negotiation" by deliberately delaying shipment of the parts to frustrate the auction "in a legal way" The big question remains was this a case of Florence Swaters buying time to rehabilitate the reputation of her father as you claim, or just another one of your "game changing" plans ?
Dear Kim, The evidence you rely upon should be termed Lack of Evidence relied upon. The U.K. court system has been supplied with only partial evidence by the Swaters camp. The complete picture is now being displayed and I am OK with you not wanting to understand. The fact still remains that the buyer is asking for a full refund plus interest and damages due to deceit. The buyer purchased a vehicle with the Original engine #0384 installed. Except the original engine is not the original engine at all. What? So please tell us all how this is not deceitful? We do know the UK courts ruled that Swaters owns the engine. Good .. it is not worth one -tenth what they paid for it. The innocent buyer has purchased a vehicle that the complete frame cradle was non-usable because of laying for 25 years in mud and rusting away. That was not disclosed by the seller and or the sellers agent (Bonhams). I remember claims from overseas that they Researched this Ferrari from day one and know the complete history and details on this car. I Think Not. And we will get to that later. You want to hang your hat on what the Justice has been offered up by the BC as a claim of ownership. This is really some more British humor. I love it.
Guy Anderson seeks to upend centuries of both the English common law and commercial transactions. All losers at trial shall have indefinite additional bites of the apple until they get the result they want. All auction houses and other brokerages shall become guarantors of every express or implied representation regarding the wares on offer. Litigation without end! No sale ever final! Regarding Joe Ford's congenital treachery, there is no mystery about that and no need for a "secret" explanation To Be Announced. He thinks he possesses super-human powers to bend every person and every situation to his will. When he enters into an agreement, it is not the end of the game, it is the beginning. While his counterparts perform their covenants, he withholds performance in order to extract concessions from his counterparts. Like Guy Anderson, litigation without end! No sale ever final!
