F40 LM Restoration | Page 41 | FerrariChat

F40 LM Restoration

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Traveller, Jan 29, 2013.

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  1. Pixel-Snapper

    Pixel-Snapper Karting

    Mar 19, 2013
    55
    Middle England
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    Matt
    Just caught up with the thread after 10 days away Tim and I must say the cars come on massively!

    Looking very very nice indeed.
     
  2. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    #1002 Traveller, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Matt, slowly, but still so much to do, starting with the engine

    The engine was putting out 650 HP at the rear wheels at full boost, and 720 at the flywheel and was dynoed as such not that long ago and we would like to approximately match these figures. However, too much of this power was achieved through boost and the stress full boost places on reliability is substantial as has been clearly established by all the issues the engine has had over its meagre 12,000 miles (new heads etc) and further confirmed by what we found on teardown (crank, valves etc); clearly no point in rebuilding it exactly as it was as otherwise we will be here again in a few thousand miles.

    We have always said what we are after is RELIABLE power and this means taking as much stress out of the engine wherever the opportunity presents itself(whilst having sensitivity for history), and one significant but expensive way of doing this is with the use of exotic metals. For the crank not to have to swing round unnecessary additional weight is achieving exactly that and we already have our lightweight flywheel saving us many pounds, but we can now add to that even more directly as Michelotto pathfound and established twenty years ago with his LM programme.

    Here is our first glimpse of our LM spec Titanium con rods. If I have my maths correct, it turns out these save over 3lbs in rotational mass which is a monster difference exactly where you need it. We were only allowed to see them and snatch a quick iphone shot, before, rather like a newborn, they were whisked away by the midwife (Crosthwaites)for the balancing act. Yes, undoubtably expensive, but having the engine in pieces it would be foolish not to take advantage of the opportunity. And, let's face it, they are yet another thing of beauty.

    As a consequence of this and other modern developments, small and large (Zircotec finish to inlet manifolds and hot side of the turbos being a small example, contemporary turbos being a large one) we are confident that we can achieve probably the same output, without resorting to high boost, leaving that only for an occasional banzai lap when it will certainly produce more than the 720, but over time at a cost. We also know from those midnight conversations with CM that a combination of high boost and high compression pistons mandated a new crankshaft every 4,500 miles. No thanks, we want to use it without that countdown clock ticking in the background. No point building in foreseeable issues.

    Next week we await delivery of the entire assembly (crank, rods, pistons, rings, flywheel etc) which are all being dynamically balanced and which will take quite some few days to achieve what we want. This engine has got to go together as perfectly and as blueprinted as possible with no HP or reliability left on the table. Tough ask, but that is the goal.
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  3. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2007
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    Gregg
    From the start you divulged your goals and your MOTEC 800 will help you achieve these goals with different maps for boost pressures and the quality/octane of the fuel you will use. The high quality of the parts and the detail put into this engine build is a key safeguard as you already know. So on that note will you be taught how to change between MOTEC maps, in lamens terms switching between race maps and street maps in regards to fuel octane and boost? Do you have access to a local MOTEC factory tuner via your dyno "break in" and then load maps?

    I digress because I know you are performing one of, if not the greatest, rebuilds of an F40 in history, I salute you sir!
     
  4. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    #1004 Traveller, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Greg, we will have a simple rotary switch as per the GTE's set behind the gear lever so we can select our mapping in the same way as they could as per attached where we will also have the original Manetinno.
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  5. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2007
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    Excellent!! I believe you mentioned this before but thank you for reclarifying.
     
  6. OldToby

    OldToby Rookie

    Aug 11, 2013
    4
    Miniack makes a great point. Obviously these sorts of projects go on all the time; what makes this one different (apart from the self-evident wonderfulness of the F-40) is that the owner is a car guy. Car guys, real ones at least, want to share the experience so that other car guys (in which group I include car ladies, of course) can join in the process, can be a part of the richness of the thing. People who aren't car guys, who are more money guys or status guys or look-at-me guys, would find their joy in exclusive possession of a thing like this, not in sharing it in such a selfless way as we've all experienced here. So thank you from all of us car guys for letting us be a part of this love-labor.
     
  7. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    I'll take that as a first post! Welcome indeed!

    I think I get as much pleasure sharing this adventure as everyone seems to get reading it. As a consequence it encourages me to go into more detail, so sort of self feeding.
     
  8. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

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    Tim
    #1008 Traveller, Aug 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Back to the chassis for a post.

    Here you can see our somewhat tatty front air conveyor which once adjusted for a perfect mate with the clam (as in one of the pics) will be stripped and restored. So much work to be done before these elements are ready for paint but we are slowly getting there. Just as I think we have almost reached a decisive point I am reminded we still don't have a rear clam in paint, upper or lower, nor a front clam or air conveyor. In fact all we have is the roof and two cills!
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  9. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    #1009 Traveller, Aug 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As I said, a change of focus this week. After the heads and conrods, now our new turbos and waste gates turned up.

    Earlier in the thread I was seeking opinions from everyone as to the right way to go as clearly we needed a nod at our history, so we keep the twin wastegates, but the twin KKK's needed updating. From endless research on all options, finally the best route seemed to be Garrett and here was the thinking:

    1. They are currently used on some LM's racing in the UK and are proving reliable and powerful.
    2. As a result of 1 above, we know we can make the Motec gear work with them, the code has been developed and we don't have to be a guinea pig.
    3. Being contemporary, they offer much reduced lag and are more reliable due to their dual ball bearing construction.

    In short, more efficient, more reliable, more powerful, less lag. Sounds good to me.

    Most important though is their track record, and we have support from a team currently running two of these LM's and they in turn have support from Garrett. No other manufacturer was interested so either we had to start from square one developing code or even if we decided to revert to a single wastegate IHI system (which departed too far from the interesting and individual history of this particular car in our opinion), with it could come reliability issues and then where do wet get the code for the Motec gear? Again we wanted reliable power and a proven route with minimum developmental risks so Garret was the logical choice and a natural evolution of where we were.

    We are keeping our old bespoke exhaust manifold system, cleaning it up and then Zircotecing it to make sure more heat comes out of the back of the car than into the engine bay, and also keeping all the old turbos etc so if my heirs had a real hard on for originality, they could be refitted-meanwhile I want drivability and reliability. So, in short, still staying true to its racing heritage, unusually still running twin wastegates with its original manifold system, but just brought up to date for a better and more reliable driving experience. A comfortable compromise we think.

    We have also had the exhaust side of the turbos Zircipotec finished, so as to try and maintain as much of the exhaust gas heat inside which can apparently markedly assist spool up. You can see the different finish in the pics.

    Not great photos I am afraid but better will follow when we really turn our attention to them.
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  10. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2007
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    Nice and I am a HUGE fan of v-bands. Are those TIAL bov's as I am also a big fan of them.
     
  11. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    Yes Gregg, Tials as you correctly IDed!
     
  12. cooperati

    cooperati Rookie

    Feb 23, 2007
    15
    so good this

    incredible documentation, and what an advert for mototechnique. nice to see uk quality getting coverage internationally, there are skills here but we dont do as good a job as others at promoting it

    until tim comes, lifts the lid! really looking forward to the rest of the story
     
  13. jamesv

    jamesv Rookie

    Aug 14, 2013
    1
    as with others, I found this thread through Petrolicious, all I can say is absolutely stunning work, the detail that has gone into it is simply mindblowing...

    I know the Hampton Court area pretty well as my now wife and I lived in Teddington for a while never knew these guys were there, but I guess that's the thing with a lot of these specialists, they generally don't need to worry about self promotion as their work speaks volumes, Carrera Sport (who are based near where I live now and maintain my fathers F car) are much the same.
     
  14. Justin1970

    Justin1970 Rookie

    Sep 18, 2011
    22
    I just recently came across this thread and have spent the entire day, on and off reading every post (work be damned). I am amazed and stunned and in awe of you.

    /hats off
    /applaud

    incredible

    thank you for posting everything on this build, it's simply stunning.
     
  15. Noblesse Oblige

    Noblesse Oblige F1 Veteran

    Nov 7, 2011
    6,114
    Three Places
    Absolutely right! And to think that Tim was worried about whether anyone cared about this (Post #10)
     
  16. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2007
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    Great car, good guy = good times for everyone.
     
  17. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2007
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    Tim,
    Were the wastegates given the "once over"? Reason I ask is because some may think the internal spring is the issue with 'boost fluctuations' without realizing there are internal seals/gaskets that play a huge part in the equation other than 'worn out/aged' springs.

    Ok that seals it, I must call my friend and beg and plead for another jaunt in his F40!!!
     
  18. sakne79

    sakne79 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2013
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    Latvia
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    Armands
    What's the Garrett turbo spec?
     
  19. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

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    Tim
    #1019 Traveller, Aug 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The Turbos are the the GTX3071r with inconel impeller and apparently used at Le Mans.

    Thanks Guys for the comments, always appreciated as this is my first foray into this restoration world and one understands why the Russians and Chinese are so cagey about broadcasting rocket launches etc as when things go wrong, it is all exposed, the good and the bad. So to have positive comments is very uplifting but then I also risk maybe making the wrong decisions which no doubt will attract negative comments, hopefully as i can learn from that too.

    Lenses now carefully set aside and fitting of headlights underway before stripping and then final prep. Also note that all important badge finally back where it belongs. Temporarily.

    Nice shot from Kevin at the bottom just to add a bit of colour to this post!

    Might we be looking at paint soon? That would be another milestone
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  20. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    #1020 Traveller, Aug 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We are having a debate here at Mototechnique and think we have agreed, but thought it would be good to hear from our 'advisory panel', Fchat.

    Here is a reminder pic of our inlet manifold. In this pic you see the raised Ferrari logotype which is self coloured. On most LMs I note it has been painted in red as attached but is that just a bit overkill, sort of gilding the Lilly?

    Thoughts?
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  21. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    John!

    In my opinion, leave it as is, it's shapely/beautiful enough on its own it doesn't need any red accent lettering.
     
  22. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    Did you end up having to re-sleeve any of the cylinders? Or did all the sleeves and pistons check out ok?

    Good idea not running this thing at full click all the time too, 500-600bhp is plenty!
     
  23. Noblesse Oblige

    Noblesse Oblige F1 Veteran

    Nov 7, 2011
    6,114
    Three Places
    I tend to like machinery without embellishments. So I vote for no paint.

    On a more general level, how many ways does the car need to announce itself as a Ferrari?
     
  24. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    No all the sleeves, pistons etc checked out perfectly

    I think we will see around 625/650 on standard boost which is more than enough. Actually possibly too much.
     
  25. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2007
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    There will soon be another 'Werewolf in London'!
     

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