oil for vintage ferrari

At the oil change use what ever you like, and then add a cup of olive oil for that real eye-taliun fragrance.

 

I don't think Ferrari has used a roller since about 1966.

 

Collector's Choice 20w50 from Moss Motors for my 1965. Conventional oil with ZDDP which is what the car was designed to run with. http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=65932

 

Some good explanations and FAQ's on Moss Motors site. Much the same as what I have read elsewhere.
http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/products/pdf/220-810_220-815_INST.pdf

Note the part about NOT using racing oil for street applications.
I used to used Valvoline 20/50 Racing because of the ZDDP until I read this.

"There are still some racing oils that contain ZDDP, and they do offer some additional protection. The actual percentage of ZDDP in racing oil is based on the intended use of that oil, and it may not be the optimal concentration of 0.15% found in the API SF oils. There are also other factors to consider. Racing oils are optimized for short term severe duty, in contrast to oil that has been designed for operation on the street for months at a time. The additive package in racing oil does not have the same detergent characteristics which are part of the additive package in oil designed for extended service. This means racing oil may not neutralize acids and keep contaminants in suspension. Racing oil generally is not multi-viscosity, which is a key feature of oil designed for use in street cars over wide temperature ranges."

They also address why it is NOT a good idea to use oils formulated for diesel engines, also the same as what I have read elsewhere.

"Don’t oils for diesel engines still have ZDDP?
Yes, some do. However, diesel oils have three characteristics you need to consider; the detergent additives, viscosity, and the amount of ZDDP in the oil.
Detergents: A diesel engine needs oil with very high detergent capabilities in order to hold the large amount of combustion byproducts in suspension. High detergent oil has a lower surface tension and lower shear pressure rating. The bearing journal size-to-displacement ratio on a gasoline engine is designed around a lower detergent oil with a high shear pressure rating. Using a API CJ grade oil for a diesel engine in a gasoline engine can lead to higher bearing wear. Another problem with high detergent oil is that the additives that keep contaminants in suspension actually reduce the wear protection provided by the ZDDP, especially in a high-performance engine with high valve spring pressures.
Viscosity: Diesel engines have larger bearing clearances, and they run higher viscosity oils as a result. The viscosity rating of most diesel rated oils is actually higher than you would normally use in a gasoline engine, which runs at higher RPM. In some cases, using high viscosity oil can cause oil starvation in bearings at high RPM.
ZDDP: It can be difficult to determine exactly how much ZDDP is in a quart of API CJ oil. The amount of ZDDP in diesel oils was reduced in 2007, and in the long run It may be a moot point, because the best information we have indicates that new diesel oils in development will have further reduced levels of ZDDP."

 

Just to clarify the correct for of Rotella oil Jim is using, I am recalling a previous post from Jim where he specifies using Shell Rotella T synthetic 5/40. I have researched this oil to no end and have used it in vintage Porsche to vintage Ferrari and have recommended it for some time now.

Rotella T is a group III synthetic and is manufactured unlike any other group III base stock. The additive package is very robust in that it meets the highest standards for deisel engines and gasoline engines. The oil can essentially be beat on more than anything I have seen yet remain robust. The base stock is the same as that of Ferrari's formula 1 engine base stock oil, but of course Formula 1 engines use an oil additive cocktail that differs from track to track.

I sent a sample of this oil to Blackstone a few months ago and got the results back but have yet to post them. I will dig them out later this week and post their findings.

 

Please return my Dino ASAP.

I have the Balsamic Vinegar here waiting.

DM

 

Thanks for being specific.

 

If I have to choose between the advice of Moss Motors, who are trying to sell me their oil, and the oil professionals on bobistheoilguy, who are not trying to sell me anything, I'll trust the latter.

For example, the 15W-40 Rotella is of LOWER viscosity than the 20W-50 we all used to use.

 

This oil question was posted in the "vintage" section of Ferrari chat. Most cars in this section run the Columbo v12 with roller followers ... except the 275GTB 4 cam onwards.

Anyway when was the ZDDP stuff supposedly removed because I've run many overhead cam engines on Castrol GTX or GTX2, etc. and never had a problem. Most modern engines are like Alfas and the Ferrari 246 engine in regards to having buckets rubbed by camshafts ... so other than gaskets I cannot see why any modern oil would not work for a Ferrari engine. Well my Toyota family car is and no wear in 195,000 km's and runs on Castrol GTX2 that I buy cheaply from the local store ...
Pete

 

I truly believe that the oil issue is often overplayed.
I have well over 400,000 miles on six Ferraris (308s and V-12s, 2 and 4 cam), one FIAT 124S, two ALFA 1600s and one Porsche 911.

I have used Valvoline, Penzoil, Mobil, and Castrol GTX - standard oils, no synthetics. The one thing they all had in common was the viscosity - 20W50.
In 1987, on a whim I tried Kendall 20W50 GT-1 and something strange happened. The oil consumtion in my 330 GTC was cut in half. No changes other than the oil - it just plain used less.
I had a small auto repair business in upstate NY, specializing in mostly imports. When doing an oil change, I would ask if a customer preferred a specific brand of oil - most did not, so I used the Kendall. Not surprisingly, a number of customers with older and high mileage cars asked if I had done anything because after a previous oil change, the car was consuming less oil. The only thing I did was switched from whatever they had been using to the Kendall.
Speaking to my (oil) supplier, I mentioned this to him and he said I was not the first to bring it up. Quite a few people had reported the same results after switching to the Kendall.

WHY?????????????????????????????????? I haven't a clue but someone out there might.

I am of course still using it in all my cars, and the 330 does not use any more than it did over 20 years ago.
Also, I have NEVER experienced a lubrication related problem.

For what it's worth,
Bob Z.

 

There is a very interesting and informative thread on engine oils in the general section, started by A E Haas. Although I do not agree with some of his points of view, there is an enormous amount of knowledge in the thread, some of which may be really surprising.

 

I agree with Bob Z. What is more important than the question of oil is OIL MAINTENANCE.

Old V12's, even the fresher ones, are nicely loosy goosy. That means quite a bit of carbon gets dumped into the crankcase. A vintage road Ferrari that's driven 1000-2000 miles a year should have its sump opened every three years and the mixture of oil and carbon settled in the bottom (aka sludge) washed.

Second, A car that is driven at this rate should not be started unless the driver intends to drive the car enough so the oil temp comes up and stays in the operating temp range for several minutes. In California, during summer, this means a good half hour of driving after proper warm up.

So, you can change the oil every six months with the most expensive concoction, but until you maintain the oil, it's time and money wasted.

john

 

Totally agree.

 

I agree. I change the oil in my BB512i with Brad Penn twice a year...once in the Spring and once in the Fall; which turns out to be every 1500klms or so...

 

If you look at the actual viscosity numbers for different oils on bobistheoilguy.com you will see that the designation 20W50 is only a rough category. Oil can differ SIGNIFICANTLY in viscosity and still be labeled the same. So,for example, some 10W40 oils are barely more viscous than 10W30, while some are only barely less viscous than 20W50
The Kendall is probably thicker so less gets past the rings. That's a good thing if you cold start flow is not a concern.

 

I think the early one cam per head engines nearly all had the nice large rolling followers.

The two cam heads have no rockers thus no place to put a roller tip, hence the flat topped buckets.

 

That's what it says on the containers. Doesn't say how much. I use it in all my cars, including my '69 365 GT and '99 Boxster Spec race car.

 

After searching I have come to the conclusion that the best oil to use is either Rotella T Synthetic (has 1400 ppm of ZDDP and .130 of Phosphorus) or Mobil 1 15W-50 ( has 1200 ppm of ZDDP ). The minimum recommended for vintage cars is 1100 ppm of ZDDP. However if you add 1 oz. per quart of GM EOS part number 88862586 you can increase the ZDDP by 170-200 ppm. Althought racing oils, as it has been said before, have plenty of ZDDP ( Valvoline Race has 2000 ppm) they do not have foam detergents.

 

hg wrote: "After searching I have come to the conclusion that the best oil to use is either Rotella T Synthetic (has 1400 ppm of ZDDP and .130 of Phosphorus) or Mobil 1 15W-50 ( has 1200 ppm of ZDDP ). The minimum recommended for vintage cars is 1100 ppm of ZDDP. However if you add 1 oz. per quart of GM EOS part number 88862586 you can increase the ZDDP by 170-200 ppm. Althought racing oils, as it has been said before, have plenty of ZDDP ( Valvoline Race has 2000 ppm) they do not have foam detergents."


WHY? What will these oils do that the regular petroleum products will not?
Who made that (vintage car) reccomendation and how is it substantiated??????????????????
Most of the internal parts in my GTC are original from 1967. I'm not sure that synthetics were even around back then.
Hard data would be interesting, especially for the long term high mileage use.
My GTC is an everyday driver so it really racks up the mileage. When it hits 200,000 miles, I may rebulid it - and maybe not!
How would these suggested oils stand up to the extra loads imposed when pulling a trailer?

Bob Z.

 

Because phosphorus can damage catalytic convertors, the government has stipulated that oils designed for gas engined cars can only have a certain amount of ZDDP, and every couple of years they lower the number again.

So the "regular petroleum products" on the shelf now are not the same as even a few years ago, and they keep getting worse in regards to preventing cam wear on flat cam-follower engines.
The main advantage of synthetics is that they have a broader viscosity range and flow better at cold startup.

 

I assume you know the history of Mobil 1 15W-50. Mobil used to sell that in a red topped jug and it was used by most racers.
Then they changed it to EP in a gold-topped jug, as I recall. After multiple race engines failed word got around that Mobil had totally changed the oil and it was being made from a very low-quality stock. (The oil engineers on bobistheoilguy confirmed this--- it's not just rumor.)

I don't know what they are selling now, but most people who know the story permanently lost confidence in Mobil and would never use Mobil 1 again.

Where did you get that number for ZDDP for Mobil 1 15W-50? If it was from some website somewhere make sure it refers to what they are selling now, not some previous iteration.

 

You are correct about the past history of Mobil 1 and I understood that only Mobil 1 15W-50 contained ZDDP 1200. I don't know whether they changed their formula recently. I use Rotella T on my car.

 

This I cannot understand because ALL modern engines are overhead cam and involve some sort of flat cam-follower and 90% do like 200,000 km's before even needing a valve adjustment ... so there is no wear happening.

I think oil technology has moved on and ZDDP is no longer required.
Pete

 

Actually I'm not sure we can say that yet.
The decreases in ZDDP content have been recent enough that few engines have high miles on them with those oils at this point.
We'll know in a few years, maybe.

 

Quite right.
And also there is no such thing as "The Viscosity" as so many posts use the word. It is so temperature dependent that your engine/transmission/differential is subjected to a variety of viscosities as you drive it. Even at a steady cruise, there will be different viscosities as temperatures change, and there will be different set of temperatures at some other cruising speed.
You need to use CLEAN oil of the right temperature range and additive package. As long as it maintains pressure in the system it is not too "thin". This is why the lowest viscosity index (which is not the actual measured viscosity) at cold start is preferred, since this is where the most wear takes place for street drivers, and you want to maximize oil flow.

Your engine must be capable of toleratng a wide range of viscosities, or you couldn't drive it at all.

Cheers
Warren