Missing vacuum line or plug? | FerrariChat

Missing vacuum line or plug?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Archer911, Sep 26, 2017.

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  1. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    The car is a 1984 308GTS QV US. The question is whether or not there should be another vacuum line or perhaps a plug in what looks like a male nipple on one end of the solenoid valve, part 2 table 9, of the air injection system. This is the title rats nest that lives beneath the expansion tank.

    The diagram doesn't show that side.

    Thanks

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  2. ME308

    ME308 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,542
    Munich, Germany
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    Michael

    no :cool:

    on the left, you see the "differential pressure" switch

    one line of the corresponding electrovalve goes to the intake
    the second line goes to the "cut off" valve ... and the third to atmosphere


    and you are sure that every little thingy of this system works like it should ? :D
     
  3. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Thanks for the "No"

    Definitely doesn't work like it should. It was great for several months then one day it turns on me.
    Haven't driven the car because it want's to stall. Been checking lines, replaced lines, etc. No change.

    Simple example: Start the car and idle speed by tach is a little over 1000rpm. Rev engine to 3500 and lift off throttle. Engine then drops below 500rpm and recovers but just barely. On the road it will stall under braking.

    Others have had similar issues and suspect vacuum leak. I haven't found one yet.
     
  4. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
    3,086
    SanFrancisco BayArea
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    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    It is unclear from your photo if all of your air injection system vacuum tubing is plumbed as is shown on Table 9.

    Table 9 shows two vacuum hoses coming off of the solenoid (Part #2), which likely means the solenoid is switching between vacuum/no-vacuum to Part #1 (Cut-off Valve). If so, this means that "no-vacuum" would require a vacuum connector open to the atmosphere as your photo shows and Michael has already confirmed. Confirm you have two vacuum hoses connected to the solenoid.

    These solenoids can be used to switch vacuum to two different locations, but it doesn't look like your car is using that solenoid that way.

    Its a little mysterious what Part #18 does.
     
  5. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Brian: The connections on the opposite side of the solenoid are exactly as the diagram shows. I have also replaced all the ancient vacuum line around the solenoid.
    The "open" connection concerned me as this part lives in a pretty dirty part of the engine bay and I would expect it to have some kind of filter to help keep filth put of the system.
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,153
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    Part #18 (the differential pressure switch) is not part of the air injection system -- it just gets the intake manifold vacuum signal from the same hose and is mounted on the same bracket.
     
  7. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    If either of those 2 components fail do you think it would cause the engine to drop below idle and stall or near stall after reving or hitting the brakes?

    Thanks.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,153
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Probably not, but - when you say this: "Start the car and idle speed by tach is a little over 1000rpm. Rev engine to 3500 and lift off throttle. Engine then drops below 500rpm and recovers but just barely. On the road it will stall under braking." -- does it have the same symptom during both cold-running (Lambda system not active) and warm-running (Lambda system active), or only during one or the other?
     
  9. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    When this first started happening the issue would not occur until the car warmed up, this was with the Cat sensor (that green wire with the quick connect under the air intake) plugged in. Since then I have unplugged it and it happens whether the car is hot or cold.

    Thanks
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,153
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Not quite following you on the sequence of events (so please edit/correct what's below to be more exact about the sequence of events):

    1. Car was running fine, both cold and warm with the O2 sensor signal plugged in.
    2. Car started having the problem only when warm, but cold was OK (O2 sensor still plugged in).
    3. Unplugged the O2 sensor, then both cold and warm were OK again.
    4. Now both cold and warm have the problem (O2 sensor still unplugged).

    Also, is your frequency valve "buzzing"/vibrating when the engine is running?
     
  11. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Steve thanks very much for the help here.

    The car ran fine for several months with the O2 sensor unplugged.
    and then...
    A) Upon starting the car would sputter for a few seconds and then reach idle of approx 1100 rpm.
    B) The car would then drive OK until warm up and then the idle would take a nose dive on braking. Sometimes it would stall.
    C) At present I see no difference in operation with the O2 sensor connected or not.

    Funny that you mention the buzzing frequency valve because when I last started it I thought the normal buzzing was absent.

    I need to be more precise with all of this and will be in the next few days. I have the car up now and am going to install a fuel/air mixture monitoring system.

    Having said all of this the plot thickens with a definite problem of the fuel flowing between the 2 tanks. I say this because when the gauge reads half full the tank will only take about 4-5 gallons before upchucking. This is the same problem I had when I bought the car from Wayne Carini. I thought this issue solved as it went away for months but is now back like the plague. I changed the 3 flexible fuel hoses last winter. There may be a blockage in the cross-over pipe.

    Thanks so much and I will add to this case file in the next few days.
     
  12. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    After installing a new Air Fuel ratio monitoring system to help me understand whats going on when and if I finally get it back to normal I was able to start the car and verify that the frequency valve is buzzing. The cat sensor has been replaced with a better one but no longer connected to the car-just the monitor.

    https://youtu.be/hhB9kVb_r1k
     
  13. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,669
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    John Kreskovsky
    I mentioned this to you before that the fuel clicking off or "upchucking" is common with QV and 328. Since you still seem to think you have a filling problem here are a couple of quotes from other threads.

     
  14. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Thanks for the comment John but no. The "slow fill-upchuck" went away for months as I previously stated. I could fill as fast as I wanted all summer.
    When the gauge says half empty the tank will only take 4 gallons or so. That tells me the gauge is only measuring the level in the driver's side tank.
     
  15. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,669
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    John Kreskovsky
    I still don't think that is the source of your problem since the fuel pump draws fuel from the D side tank. The crossover pipe being clogged would only affect your range. But here is a quick test. Driving straight, with the gage reading 1/2 full, what happens when you go around a turn, left or right? You should see the gage move towards full for one direction and towards empty when you turn the other way. Not talking about a left or right turn, but a longer sweeper on a highway like I 95, at highway speed. If you see the gage move like that it is an indication that the fuel is moving between tanks. In my car I can latterly go for low fuel indicator on to over 1/2 tank deepening on which way the road curves.

    Other option is that you gage is off, reading 1/2 when you are only down a 1/4 (or less).
     
  16. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    John, the car is not running reliably enough to do that kind of driving. I need to solve the idea problem first. Thanks.
     
  17. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,669
    CT
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    John Kreskovsky
    Sorry to hear that. I know you have had a lot of problems with the car. Seems odd. My 85 has been bullet prof since new. I guess that's the benefit of a one owner car that has never been fooled with. You'll figure it out.
     
  18. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,527
    California SF bay area
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    Paul
    It does only tell driver's side level as that is where the float sensor is but the level in both tanks when stopped on level ground is the same unless the lower crossover or possibly upper cross-vent is clogged. I had trouble fueling my car when I first got it until replacing the filler and crossover hoses. Now I can pump in full blast with no problems.
     
  19. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
    Montana
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    Kim
    The crossover hose between tanks or something like 1" 5/16 ID.
    Sorry guys, just have a really hard time believing that plugged off inless you're shoving rags down into the fuel tank.
     
  20. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
    3,086
    SanFrancisco BayArea
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    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    A tank will not fill from the bottom if there is not vent at the top to let the air escape that the liquid is displacing.

    Since you've recently replaced the two pup hoses on the crossover pipe, it is unlikely the problem is there. It is more likely that the vent pipes at the top of the passenger tank have been plugged. There are 5 of them. Why they plug and unplug sporadically is a little mysterious.
     
  21. Streetsurfer

    Streetsurfer Formula Junior

    Dec 16, 2015
    934
    near Chicago
    Full Name:
    Ron
    I’ve had the top crossover pipe clog on a semi. It would run out of fuel unexpectedly from draining one tank first. By the time someone got there with fuel, it would restart (before adding that fuel) after a very slow transfer from the other tank. It was presumably also leaving me stranded because of the slow transfer at filling. I was leaving the yard with less fuel than I thought (or that it showed) that I was carrying.

    A little condensation build up and any tiny bit of bio-film can have a hay day in the lines.
     
  22. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    YES BRIAN!

    Fuel vapor occupies volume and must be displaced for liquid to occupy the same space.

    So here's what I think happened to my car. When trying to solve a different issue I found line #22 had a good size crack and was obviously leaking vacuum. In my mind the anti evaporative system must have vacuum to vent both tanks through the vapor separator #5 and filter #18. No vacuum no proper venting.

    I believe a lack of venting would also slow the flow of fuel between tanks. I know the tanks weren't communicating as previously explained. The real clue to that came after a few days of the car sitting and the gas gauge going from near full to 3/4t full. So over a few days the passenger side tank vented and the levels in the two tanks equalized.

    I'm not 100% sure that these theories are totally correct just yet as I have not been able to drive the car much until yesterday but will let you all know in the next few days.

    I hopen I'm right and that this will help others with a similar problem.

    And yes, why the hell did Ferrari need so many vent lines going into the vapor separator?

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  23. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
    3,086
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    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    #23 Brian A, Oct 5, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
    Excellent! Glad to hear you've found the prime suspect.

    Note though too, that there is a larger hose/pipe shown as #62 "Breather Pipe" on TAV 11: Fuel Pumps and Pipes. That pipe splits at the driver side tank with one branch going to the driver's side tank and the other branch going high on the fuel filler neck.

    It looks to me like the purpose of this pipe is to 1. allow rapid venting of vapors while the tanks are being filled and 2. general pressure equalization between the two tanks as the level drops from fuel being consumed.

    As long as this "Breather Pipe" is open, all the other 4 top ports on the passenger fuel tank could be plugged and the passenger tank could fill as quickly as you want.
     
  24. ME308

    ME308 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,542
    Munich, Germany
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    Michael

    yub, line 22 should not leak -
    otherwise, when ever the engine pulls vaccum, like under breaking, unmetered air would be drawn into the plenum ... engine stalls

    for a first test, you can take line 22 off the plenum at juntion 24 and close that hole (line 22 will leak to atmosphere during the test)
    sure, you could just tape line 22 - but maybe it is also perforated else where ...
    report back what you find


    the canister valving construction lets the gas tank pass excess pressure (with gas vapors) out through the charcoal bed to atmosphere
    whenever no engine vacuum is present, but the pressure in the tank builds -
    it draws air through the charcoal bed (to "dry" it) when engine vacuum is present.
     
  25. Archer911

    Archer911 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2016
    907
    New England
    Full Name:
    Tim
    #62 "Breather Pipe" has been a prime suspect since day 1. There may be a problem with it and in fact I noticed a few weeks ago that there was a slight twist in the pipe when it nears the tank on the driver's side. Next time I have the engine lid off and the back wheel well covers of I will replace it.

    So at this time #62 could be contributing to the problem but the fact that the slow fueling issue went away for several months then came back recently adds to the mystery. It may just have been because the split in line #22 was just where it enters the plenum—so depending on the position of the line the slice could be a little more open—like a slice across a finger.
     

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