Hi, My project is to tuning and overall my rally car engine to the following specs: F360 crankshaft; F360 rods; F360 liners; 85 mm pistons Stock head and K-Jetronic Bosch system; Find a dry-sump kit to apply to engine: Some of the topics are already discuss in this forum, but the information is not concentrate so I decide to open this topic. My doubts are: 1 - What are exactly the dimension to be used to bore the block for the 360 liners? 2 - I read the 360 crankshaft can be used directly in 308 engine, except that is necessary to add a small ring to add some space between the front bearing and the crank poli? This is correct? 3 - The 348 head gaskets could be used in the 308 head, because of the 85 mm piston? 4 - If someone know a place where is a kit to convert the engine to dry-sump will be appreciate. Or the oil pump volume flow vs rpm, to calculate the flow of the external oil pump? I hope to hear good informations from members, Regards to all.
I don't know if a stock K-Jet system will handle the fuel requirements of the bigger engine... I'd suggest you seriously consider converting to a modern EFI system that will let you program fuel AND ignition. Nick's Forza Ferrari has several options.
Newman has done a couple of these..I think there is a thread on here regarding the build. Not sure if he went dry dump or not..
For historic reason I will keep the Bosch injection. Since the plate measure the air flow I hope it could handle the need of more fuel, especial when at strong aceleration at full throttle . Note the 328 have the same fuel injection system and the engine have more than 30cv than the QV.
There not a sprint rallies only fast regularly ones, so no cheating, just a lite more power make it more fun. With EFI it looks to modern, so I prefer to keep it looks classic and original. I found that f360 crankshaft will fit the 308 block, not perfect since the first main bearing have a big gap (not big deal since doesn't compromise the lateral movement) and is necessary to add a small ring of 5 mm to the nose of the crank to have the gear align if cam gears and oil one. The linears are also simple, but need a bit of block machinery and also need a ring and 2 o-ring, one for each face of the ring to block water to flow inside of engine (mixed with oil).
First off good luck with your project. I have a 3.456743 motor with a 360 crank built by Mr. Newman. It was pointed out that most hp gains would be left on the table if the engine couldn't be made to breath better. This meant larger valves, porting and plenum modification. The issue you then face in going too big on piston size is head gasket. Too big then custom gaskets, a little bigger then stock gaskets. As far as fueling we decided to go EFI as we needed to properly tune the car for maximum power. We used a Haltec. For more details see Crowndog's Adventure on this forum and I think most of the pros and cons are discussed on your topics. Not far from stock looking which I tried hard to maintain:
Anyone knows the oil pump volume of the 308 QV and 360? I could used the oil nozzle to cold the pistons from 360 to 308 QV easily, but I'm afraid the 308 oil pump couldn't handle with the extra flow volume. Any opinion about this issue?
First let me say, this sounds like a fun project and I wish you the best of luck with it. I'll offer some pointers that may help you avoid some issues with the project as you've layed it out. The 360 liners will not fit in the 308/328 engine blocks, they are not dimensionally the same nor can they be machined to fit. The 360 crank does fit but requires a spacer to fit where the stock oil pump driving sprocket was. The 360 oil pump is in 3 sections, 2 are scavenge and 1 is the main pressure pump. The pressure section has the same volume as the 308/328 pump. There are no 'kits' for a dry sump on the 308/328 engines. I ended up custom building a scavenge pump mount and using the stock pressure pump for a 'modified' drysump on the 4L project. It was a fair amount of work but works great and survived all it's dyno tuning pulls. I totally understand the desire to retain the stock look, it's why my EFI conversions use hand made fuel rails that look like the CIS injector rails. Unfortunatly the CIS fuel system will not be able to efficiently handle a race prepped engine, it's far to slow to respond and does not control the fuel rate well enough to handle engines with high delta V characteristics. It will cost you HP and also cost a small fortune to modify in order to run with the increased displacement of the new engine. You really are better off with a programmable ECU. Stock heads, I'm going to be real honest here, if you are keeping the heads stock and valve train untouched, do not bother with this project. The heads are marginal for flow as it is, at the very least you need to port them a bit and change the valves. The BIG one is the stock cam profile, it's terrible for what you want. Not touching the heads is shooting yourself in the foot. Between the stock heads and CIS the engine would probably only pick up a 35~50 HP tops after increasing the volume, that's a lot of work and money for very little gain. The engine would also not have any increase in RPM. I'd be concerned with sonic flow at the seats and ports due to the small throat and larger cylinder volume. I suggests sitting down and doing some engineering on your project before getting underway, it could save you a lot of headaches and money. Your project as outlined is going to cost roughly $30k and very likely twice that, that's why I highly suggest planning it out. Just my thoughts...
So how much difference do one of these engines make in the car? Is it like it has more power, or holy crap this car really has more power? Just curious?
The K-Jet fuel system will easily handle the horsepower you require. You need to ensure that the injectors will flow the volume you require. The Fuel distributor can already supply the fuel and a few tweeks to the WUR and there is no problem. But, if you really want to have extra fuel at full, or nearly full throttle, put a switch on the accelerator system so that you switch on the cold start injector at full throttle. A very easy undetectable fuel supply fix. If you want more info contact me at K-JET SPECIALISTS - HOME Colin
The project still going. I hope to get around 300 cv of the engine. I order custom piston from JE and look great. If the 328 have 272 cv wiith same head of 308 QV, I guess with more 400 cm3, plus CR 11:1, inlet 328 cam, a less restrictive exhaust system, 300 cv should be a easy number. I my next post I will calculate the air flow max velocity to have an idea of the theorical values.
michelotto gr B rally cars ran 4v with K jet. these were reported to make 300hp despite the limitations of the toilet plunger
from what I've found group B ran kugelfischer injection, a tad different then CIS. Group 4 ran k-jet but don't recall the claimed power output. The QV group B was reported to be 310HP.
smg gr4 michelotto ran kugelfischer mfi on 2v predating the gr B grB ran CIS on the 4v motors for homologation reasons you got it backwards
