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ZFFAD08A0C0039165 History -- Fake VIN?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Russ Gould, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. sipes216

    sipes216 Karting

    May 9, 2015
    116
    it does go pretty far, but the fact remains, that MULTIPLE vin locations were possibly tampered. not just one. you should NEVER have to do that. EVER.
     
  2. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,706
    Central Florida
    Well I guess the only good thing is that most of us will be long gone in 50+ years when there are 87 "original" 250 GTO's out there. They will have to figure it out on their own.
    Alden
     
  3. PhilB

    PhilB Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 17, 2004
    1,540
    NYC, USA
    Full Name:
    Phil
    Or did it pack a few pounds on over the holidays?

    4180 pounds.....
     
  4. sipes216

    sipes216 Karting

    May 9, 2015
    116
    that's the gross weight, which includes car weight + cargo to a maximum allowed total loading of the car.

    some real fatties.
     
  5. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 25, 2013
    3,703
    The Netherlands - NH
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    Tijn
    I'm with Alden that one should notify local authorities if one intends to buy it and after good research the car would be stolen.

    There can be multiple reasons why the VIN looks like it looks like now. It is on a place where it is exposed to the elements and not taking care of the VIN on that place it simply rusts away. If one number is not clearly visible.. is it an 3 or an 8? it will not pass MOT and it needs to be restamped. For the additional plates on the door. Maybe someone like them and placed them.

    We should be carefull placing post like these about cars unless one has definate answers the VIN is incorrect IMHO.

    So far the car is legal to me unless proven otherwise. The future owner has the responsibility to check and investigate and report to appropriate authorities. Anything else is speculation and might discredit the current owner for he that might own a legit vehicle.

    :)
     
  6. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2014
    2,969
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I agree with Tijn that one should normally err on the side of good will mixed with due diligence, but this one does have the faint aroma of having fallen from the back of a truck.
     
  7. bartzagato

    bartzagato Formula Junior

    Aug 7, 2010
    614
    Belgium
    Full Name:
    Bart
    Apart from the bottom sticker which makes no sense, the chassisnumber isn't conform according to my repair manual page A4:

    ZFF: ferrari
    A: engine type only H or L is possible on mondial 8/QV
    D: passenger protection system
    08: model Mondial8 ( F108L)
    A: lhd-USA
    0: check digit
    C: model year only 0 or P is possible
    ... Rest

    Am I wrong or this tag?
     
  8. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    The VIN check corresponds to the correct make model and year but there is only one event recorded for this VIN, a registration event in LA in 2002. So for 20 years prior no record (and this is definitely a US market car); and for 14 years subsequent nothing either. The VIN has been altered in all 3 locations. I can only deduce that this VIN belongs to another Mondial that was scrapped in Louisiana (maybe hurricane katrina?) and that someone has assumed that car's identity for nefarious purposes.
     
  9. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
    5,070
    Duluth, MN
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    The Meister
    Is that event in 2002 shown via a carfax or other "official ;)" history reporting agency or just via a google/yahoo search?
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    18,742
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    The information you are using to decode the VIN is not complete (it doesn't cover North America) -- try this one:

    Red Headed - VIN Decoder

    ("C" in the tenth digit is correct for a 1982 model year in North America)
     
  11. FCnew

    FCnew Formula Junior

    May 5, 2015
    671
    Hong Kong / Canada
    Full Name:
    Jonathan
    .

    Maybe this is a "Lego" car?
     
  12. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    Turns out a car with this VIN is still legally titled in CA ... so either there are two of them or the car and the current owner/title have been "separated". Unfortunately there is no way to get the owner's name, federal privacy etc etc.
     
  13. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
    5,070
    Duluth, MN
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    The Meister
    why so much interest in a "cheap" ferrari?
     
  14. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
    5,070
    Duluth, MN
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    The Meister
    so it has a good title, buy it!
     
  15. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    The title is in the name of an unknown person living in CA. Since then the car was sold in FL without a title, to a person in GA who has offered the car for sale, again without a title. At the risk of stating the obvious, if you put money into a vehicle to which someone else has title, you just gave that person a christmas present and you could be out the purchase price plus whatever money you put into the vehicle.
     
  16. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2010
    6,611
    Connecticut
    Full Name:
    Ken S
    All this sounds like is a typical "open title" buy and sell

    So, seller in CA sells his car to guy in FL, who asks the seller to keep the title "open" and unsigned, so, when he flips it, his name is not on the title, thus staying "off the books" for tax and monetary reasons. He then can sell it to the next guy, make up a story etc about how or why the title went unsigned. This can go on down the chain two or three or however many times until the "end user" purchases and signs the title.

    Standard "business" procedures
     
  17. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    Except the seller has no idea who the title holder is and he does not have the title. Did not even know about the CA title. I discovered that by making umpteen phone calls around the country. Given the Vin mutilation it's not clear the owner in CA actually sold the car.
     
  18. sipes216

    sipes216 Karting

    May 9, 2015
    116
    from my experience of open titles, the law typically discourages this. in texas where i live, i kept one open for about a year, and got a very pissy argument from the dmv about it, and was charged extra for delinquency.

    as far as open title goes, if it's in hand, it's typicallly yours if you have a purchase agreement signed, and or the title signed. it only flips once registered with the state.

    it is full well possible for it to have been open a year or two.
    worse yet, flipping titles over to diff states too can add another complexity to the matter.
     
  19. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    This car is now up for auction on ebay, where it is represented as a Euro car which is not correct.

    Ferrari Mondial Base Coupe 2 Door | eBay

    It also now has a motor. When I looked at it, the car had no motor. The seller at the time represented that the motor was removed and then subsequently stolen. So the motor that's in it almost certainly is not the matching motor.

    I also was able to ascertain, by calling CA DMV, that the car is still in their database with a legal title issued to a person in CA. They would not identify the person. At that point I balked ... why put a bunch of money into a car that is legally titled to someone else? I see the current owner did just that.
     
  20. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
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    seller clearly responded to a question (I asked him) in which he sourced another engine from a friend/buddy who turned his mondi into a track car. Current seller should disclose this in his intial description (no doubt), but at the end of the day who gives a crap over a running (slight beater) 82 mondi that can be bought for around $22K.
     
  21. sidtx

    sidtx F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 9, 2014
    2,655
    Frisco, Tx
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    Sid

    Russ is providing enough evidence that there is something wrong with the title.

    There are people looking to purchase a Mondial on this forum. This is good info for prospective buyers.

    Sid
     
  22. WilD

    WilD Karting

    Jan 20, 2011
    99
    Metro Detroit
    Full Name:
    Matt
    Interesting that it has a California vin tag rather than factory, and the the chassis number does look like it was intentionally destroyed by someone at some point. (you can see that it looks like someone went after it with a hammer and punch in the ebay listing)

    My guess (and this is indeed just a guess) is that this car was stolen at one point, but may have been recovered despite the vin damage, hence the state vin tag. Legally importing a car should not lead to the obfuscation of it's manufacturer vin tags... This car is always going to have stories, and it may be a roll of the dice to see if your state believes them.

    I wouldn't want to deal with it... unless the discount were bigger. :D
     
  23. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    #48 Russ Gould, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    The auction stalled out at about $20K and then it was pulled before the "final bell" ... sold privately perhaps or seller got cold feet. A Mondial 8 with "stories", non-working A/C and non-working sunroof is the bottom of the barrel. Well I suppose it did have a fresh major and it is black ...
     

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