Your view: Senna the greatest driver | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Your view: Senna the greatest driver

Discussion in 'F1' started by jk0001, Feb 23, 2009.

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  1. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Hands down.
     
  2. ferraridude615

    ferraridude615 F1 Veteran

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    Honestly, the case can be made for either driver, with both being among the best ever. The problem arises trying to compare drivers of different eras in different vehicles. We will all just have to wait and see till we're up in heaven and they organize an F1 race up there.
     
  3. ferraridude615

    ferraridude615 F1 Veteran

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    +1000. Anakin had the potential to overtake the Green Machine, but we all know how that went.
     
  4. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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    It's far more interesting to set the best grid of all time, then the best cars. The good old days of 26 competitors works best.
     
  5. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    Wouldn't this be an argument in favour of Schumi? We all know how much influence he had on the car development, and I think his input was not limited on performance.
     
  6. 05011994

    05011994 Formula 3
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    It would be a good argument, but all of the cars, not just the Ferraris, were much more relaible in the 2000 on period, if you look at old race reports there were many more failures engine and otherwise in the 1970s-mid 1990s time period. Both drivers should be counted in the top four including Jim Clark and Fangio in my book.
     
  7. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    Fully agree, but the reliability of the Ferrari engines in the first half of this decade was extraordinary!
     
  8. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Exactly.

    Conditions are the same for everybody in a given era:

    Just as everybody had no seat belts in the fifties, highly flammable cars in the sixties/seventies, finicky turbos in the eighties, unreliable cars in the nineties, everybody had reliable cars in the 00s yet only MS came out of it with 7 titles.

    As I said before: If it were that easy now, why didn't MS go on to an 8th win or Alonso just clean up with 4 wins. And yes, the Ferrari was bullet proof, but it wasn't when MS decided to switch to the Scuderia. You make the bed you lay in.
     
  9. racerx3317

    racerx3317 F1 Veteran

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    #34 racerx3317, Feb 25, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2009
    I have to disagree. The Ferrari was bulletproof as were most of the other cars in that era but it was also the best car in the field and MS didn't even have to worry about his teammate racing him. While it may have been the same for everyone in terms of reliability that was probably the only thing that was the same for everyone in the 00s era. The FIA wanted Ferrari to win again after floundering for so many years and they got many breaks during the course of that era. Having things banned when they couldn't get them to work, etc. Heck they were even on a different tire than everyone else. MS was the number one driver at the time and reaped the benefits. It was not the same for everyone, just ask Rubens.
     
  10. Scuderia P1

    Scuderia P1 Formula Junior
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    It's not only subjective, it's full of errors. Maybe you should do some research, then you might change up your list.

    Fangio didn't start every race from the front row, most of them but not all.

    Jim Clark finished second in just about every form of racing, 63 german GP he was beaten by a Ferrari, also he was second at Indy and Le Mans. He was also 3rd a lot, and 4th, 5th, ect. He also failed to finish almost as many races as he won.

    IMO these 2 drivers can't be compared to so called "modern" GP drivers.

    I think it's impossible to put Lauda on your list and not Alain Prost (4 time champ), who can and did drive circles around Lauda and was the better of Senna IMO. I would put Prost up with Schumacher with Senna bringing up the rear,

    How's that for subjective...
     
  11. ferrari09

    ferrari09 Rookie

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    The real question should be who was the greatest #2 driver to support these champions? Rubens? uhhh no.
     
  12. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    There is certainly no good answer for who is "best". But, I think that Fangio and Clark have to be right there on top. I would dare any modern driver to get into those machines and drive as hard as they did. That is not to say that modern drivers don't face death or are cowards in comparison. It just means that it takes someone special to put this out of their minds and drive as long and hard as those in the 50's through the 70's.

    The cars were fast, dangerous, and without any sorts of driving aids and minimal or no driver protection. It was just the driver, his skill, and his nerve that got them around the track faster than the others. If you look at Fangio's record with the 250F versus the others that drove the car, clearly he had something special going on.

    Today, we have computers and trainers and nutritionists and sports therapists and driver adjustability of everything -- including his drink bottle. All those things are really good and I would not suggest going backwards. It's just very difficult now to imagine how Clark could have put the danger out of his mind and drove faster than anyone else with such consistency.

    My hat is off to any driver who got into a racing car in that period.
     
  13. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I loved Senna's courage and b.alls, but if I had one race and one driver on which I had to bet a year's salary, I'd pick Michael.
     
  14. ferrari09

    ferrari09 Rookie

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    Well said BDELP!!!
     
  15. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

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    Nuvolari was an incredible driver, but not a Formula One driver as he never competed in a Formula One race. Nuvolari is my driving hero, but I wouldn't call him the best F1 driver because he didn't compete in F1. If the discussion is about the best driver of all time then I think there are some rally drivers who should be included in the top 10.
     
  16. decardona

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  17. f1lupo

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    I don't give a rats ass about what polls say but I do know that Senna was and will always be one of the best F1 racers of all time !
     
  18. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #43 tifosi12, Feb 26, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
    A few points:
    - Yes the Ferrari became bulletproof, but that was a) through hard work on MS' part and b) not the case when MS made the switch from Benetton. You reap what you plant.
    - MS stiffled his #2, no argument. However the Rubens argument only goes so far: a) Just because Rubens tailgated MS in some races doesn't mean he would have been faster without team order (in some cases MS was driving home the engine). And b) MS did pay back Rubens more than once. Remember the "mistake" at the USGP where MS didn't recognize the finish line? Yeah right.
    - I agree that the FIA wanted Ferrari to win really bad. Equally they also wanted them NOT to win after too many crushing victories and championships.

    With Senna's premature death there will be never a conclusive answer. So the only thing to go by are cold results and those point to MS.

    PS: I'm neither a MS nor Senna fan, but you knew that already.
     
  19. racerx3317

    racerx3317 F1 Veteran

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    Yes it was through MS's hard work, there's no doubt about that at all, but he did get an awful lot of help. The FIA only intervened when the racing got so boring that no one was watching. 2000-2004 was so freaking boring they couldn't let it go anymore (03, I think, with the 3 way battle with Kimi and JPM was a good season). They let it go for years which inflated MS win and championship totals. As far as Rubens goes, MS was usually faster, but even on those days that Rubens was faster, he wasn't allowed to compete with MS. It deprived Rubens and all of us of a fair race with a true winner.

    Even if you go by cold results he had a far longer career than Senna did there's no telling how many more wins Senna would have taken away from MS which would have changed the totals around. If you cut off MS's career at the 10 year point he's ahead but with far weaker opposition than Senna had.

    There's really no way to tell.
     
  20. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Agreed.

    It is difficult to say what would have happened had Senna lived, but here is my scenario:

    - MS would have bagged the 94 title by a hair (Senna struggled already up until Imola and the FIA wouldn't have disqualified MS)
    - Senna would have gone to Ferrari in 95 and only won an occasional race, but no more titles (just as MS struggled there until 99)
    - The Williams cockpit would have remained available for Hill and Villeneuve, however MS at Benetton might have given them the fight we saw IRL
    - After a few years at Benetton, MS would have moved on to either McLaren (no chance for Hakkinen of ever getting the title) or taken over from Senna at Ferrari, who retired frustrated.

    Discuss. ;)
     
  21. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    ^ for some reason, i always thought that Senna would never drive for the Scuderia, based on the fact that they're not up on par with the rest, and i've always imagined that Senna would have eventually retire in 1997. He would have taken the 1996 and 1997 title, before retiring in 1997. Just my thoughts.
     
  22. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    He was in talks with Enzo and I believe had a contract for 95. The movie "La Passione" even has a brief dream sequence with Enzo and Senna.
     
  23. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    As has been noted, it's a "pointless" discussion, but:

    - By the #'s, there's really no argument - it's MS.

    - However, by my "passion" measure, Senna was simply without peer - He could take a semi-crap car and simply get more from it than anyone else - He'd "wring it's neck!" and seem to make it go by shear force of will - Especially in quali. I remember watching him at Brands in the turbo era and he was *visibly* faster than anyone else going thru' Paddock Bend - It was awe inspiring.

    And who hasn't seen his pole lap at Suzuka in the "50 years of F1 onboard" video? *That* was a lap worthy of the Gods [Still gives me goosebumps every time I watch it.....]

    One of the greatest shames in F1 history those two never really got to go head-to-head.

    OTOH, Jimmy Clark was simply scary fast - On two wheels in a Lotus Cortina thru Clearways - Ran off into the distance, won (IIRC), jumped out, and jumped into the F1 Lotus for quali - *Awesome* stuff.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  24. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    How well has that contract been confirmed between Senna and Ferrari? It just seems strange to me that Senna would switch to Williams for one season and leave so quickly. Enzo Ferrari had been gone for 6 years, so any discussions he had with The Man would have been way in the past. My guess would be that when Ayrton signed to Williams, that would have closed the book on any possibility left open in the wake of Enzo's legacy. But Senna was a pretty loyal guy, and Williams was starting to get the car right. It's obvious they did seeing the successes of Hill and Villeneuve. I think a more realistic scenario would have seen Senna remaining at Williams and winning another title or 2. He probably would have lost out in 94, won in 95 and beyond that depends on how long he remained.
     
  25. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #50 tifosi12, Feb 28, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2009
    Don't forget MS' 7th place at Spa in the Jordan. Same thing.

    Granted your scenario looks more reasonable, but I thought I read somewhere that it was a given that Senna would have joined Ferrari in 95. And yes, the Enzo-Senna encounter was anecdotal at best.

    "La Passione" has a lot of dream sequences with the old man and it did point clearly towards what would have been. Check this out:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBu2SyvSBhE

    At 2:37 you'll see the scene I was referring to: Ayrton climbing into a F1 Ferrari with the help of Enzo standing by.

    Also found this:
    http://www.blick.ch/sport/formel1/die-rote-drohung-108504

    "Fernando Alonso, der Spanier aus Mont-sur-Rolle VD, ist also auf der Jagd nach Ferrari – wie einst Ayrton Senna, der aber die Zwischenstation Williams 1994 nicht überlebte. "
    Translation:
    "FA, the Spaniard from Mont-sur-Rolle is on the hunt for Ferrari - just like Ayrton Senna once did, who however did not survive the interims solution at Williams in 1994"
     

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