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your thoughts on 365 cooling issue please

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by rustytractor, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. vecchio59

    vecchio59 Karting

    Nov 25, 2011
    199
    Savona, NW Italy
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    Marco
    I've purchased a new cap, it's rated 1.1 bar... does anyone know if this is the right rating ?
     
  2. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
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    Russell Schacter
    #27 rustytractor, Sep 14, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
    So today I flushed out and cleaned the cooling fins on the rad and fitted the new expansion tank (thanks Howard) along with new rad caps.

    The car still isn't UK registered so I can't take it out for blast even if I wanted to so I ran in on the drive until up to temp when the fans did cut in - so far so good.

    Taking Simons advice I checked the fans and am sure all isn't well here (although the fix should be simple) - read the following carefully:-

    Looking from the front of the car the left hand fan has the blades set convex and spins anti clockwise. The right hand fan has the blades set convex and spins clockwise.

    As most of you will be aware, the fans are situated behind the grill facing towards the rad but both fans are pulling air from the engine through the rad and blowing it forward.

    I'm pretty sure that the fans should be blowing cool air towards the rad as Simon suggested but the clockwise/anticlockwise convex/concave pitch is confusing.

    The fans aren't the same but I'm unsure which one (or either) is original. Changing rotation direction is a simple rewiring job and hopefully the incorrect-facing fan blade can be removed and reversed - I just wondered if anyone knew definitely what's correct.

    I gave up testing the cooling system because even if the expansion tank's sorted the car will still overheat if the fans aren't doing their job properly (this may have been a major part of the initial problem as the car only got hot on the 150 mile drive home when in traffic - exactly when the fans should be doing their job).

    If no one is 100% sure I'll have a look on my 400 tomorrow.

    Confused ? That makes two of us !!
     
  3. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
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    Bruce
    #28 blkprlz, Sep 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
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    Funny thing is that there are no fans shown in the front of the radiator in the IPB's on Eurospare's or Ricambi's, only the fan behind the rad. :(
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    The two fans mounted in front of the water radiator are shown on the AC page (because they are also the fans for the AC condensor):

    Ferrari 400i Parts : Table 54 - AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM
     
  6. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
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    Bruce
    Ah ha, so that's where they were hiding :eek:
    & now I see that the 365 fans (3 blades) are different to the 4 bladed 400i fans.
     
  7. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
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    ok - so now we've identified where they are and how many blades they've got can anyone cure my confusion ??????
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    (For the two fans in front of the radiator) Yes -- make it happen! ;)
     
  9. Tassie

    Tassie Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2009
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    Wayne Clark
    Russ,
    Doesn't matter as long as the air is going through the radiator in the direction of the engine for each fan. That should get the temp under control unless the problem is also the thermostat - and that is common. If the fans come on though the chances are slim that you have a thermostat problem though it can be intermittent....... Ferraris are great cars.
    Have fun.
     
  10. vecchio59

    vecchio59 Karting

    Nov 25, 2011
    199
    Savona, NW Italy
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    Marco
    Here is where I am... on my 365.

    Looking at the front grill, the right fan starts when water temp goes high, the left one starts when the A/C is on.
    Try with a lighter (flame) in front of the grill... I see teh flame leaning towards the grill, hence both fans pull air from thh outside thru the radiator ... is that right ? I don't really know, I tend to believe it is how it was in the origin, but I'm not 100% sure.

    Hope this helps, cheers
    Marco
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    This is not correct operation for your 365GT4 2+2 model, and you most likely you have a bad relay (or wiring/connection problem). Both fans should come "on" when the water temp goes high.

    There are three relays for operating the two fans:

    One relay to turn on the LH fan (what you've called "right") when the water temp goes high (called relay 4 on pages 78-79 of your 75/73 OM, and relay 30 on the wiring diagram).

    One relay to turn on the RH fan (what you've called "left") when the water temp goes high (called relay 9 on pages 78-79, and relay 29 on the wiring diagram).

    One relay to turn on only the RH fan (what you've called "left") when the AC is "on" (called relay 8 on pages 78-79 and relay 99 on the wiring diagram).

    Relay 9/29 is most likely bad, but try swapping relay 4/30 and relay 9/29 -- if, after the swap, the RH fan (what you've called "left") now comes on when the water temp is high, but the other one doesn't = bad relay; if (after the swap), things stay the same = wiring/connection problem.

    I can state with 100% certainty, that both fans should run when the water temp is high.
     
  12. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
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    After a day of messing around doing various jobs on the 365 it turned out that the passenger side fan (right hand side looking from the front of the car) is the replacement fan and that's the one that had been wired up incorrectly to pull rather than push. It now turns anticlockwise (as does the original LHS fan) so pushes rather than pulls.

    My concern is that the curve of each blade on this non-original fan is facing the wrong way when compared to the original fan and I'm unsure if this will result in less air being pushed forward. Because of this I thought I'd remove the fan and see if the blade assembly could be spun round but typical Ferrari design lunacy dictates the fan slides out towards the A/C rad and about another 5-10mm clearance is needed to clear the mounting bracket and get it out without removing the rad - so I didn't bother !!

    Either way it's got to be better than it was so hopefully the new expansion tank and rad caps, flushed out rad, cleared airways through the core and both fans spinning the right way will sort the problem.

    I left the car running for about 30 mins on the drive and both fans kicked in when the temp rose (wasn't watching so can't be sure exactly at what temp) but the gauge stayed vertical at 195 degrees which is what I wanted to see.

    That said it's a miserable, wet, cool/cold day so nothing conclusive yet.

    As they say - watch this space !
     
  13. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    Thanks for this Marco but Steve is 100% right (yet again) in that both fans should run when the temp goes high.

    Mine's a '74 and I'm unsure what year your car is. There may be a difference in fan operation but I doubt it.
     
  14. squidmark

    squidmark Karting

    Sep 11, 2011
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    Oxford
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    Howard Dent
    #39 squidmark, Sep 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Russ, if you're car still has the original 3 blade fans fitted (which from what you say, it might not) - the blades are secured by a grub screw, and the fan motor is extracted towards the grille - see the pictures below.

    Please disregard the 400 type foglamps and heater motors - but the rad fans are definitely original!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
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  15. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    #40 rustytractor, Sep 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The replacement fan is different and I couldn't find a grub screw or any kind of securing screw on it. I'll have another look when I get time as ran out of time today.

    And thanks once again for sorting the tank for me - I owe you a beer or two !
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    the other one's original though.
     
  17. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Don't want to hijack this too bad but, while we're talking a out relays where do we get them. The 365 doesn't have the usual Bosch relays.
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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  19. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    #44 rustytractor, Sep 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  20. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Dec 23, 2007
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    OMG! An Italian car with British electrical components, I think I'll just give up now!



    Thanks Steve for the link.
     
  21. vecchio59

    vecchio59 Karting

    Nov 25, 2011
    199
    Savona, NW Italy
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    Marco
    THANKS ! I trully appreciate your help, will go and check my 365 (it's a 1973, VIN 17183, can't believe it should be different from your 1974...)

    Bye, Marco
     
  22. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    True but look how SHINY those relays still are after 39 years.

    We may build them like crap but as long as they look good it fine by us !
     
  23. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Here is the car version of Heaven and Hell:

    Heaven is a world in which cars have British interiors, German electrics, Italian styling and Japanese reliability.

    Hell is a world in which cars have German interiors, British electrics, Japanese styling and Italian reliability.

    :D
     
  24. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Funny, that is what my first reaction was in seeing that photo! Maybe it was taken 39 years ago? ;)

    One of my favorite bumper stickers was on a Lotus: "All of the parts falling off of this car are of the finest British manufacture". :)
     
  25. jacques

    jacques Formula Junior

    May 23, 2006
    830
    Los Angeles/Florida
    Maybe I can help without being trite, here. For fifteen years, I was the proud owner of a 1985 Jaguar XJ6L. The relays pictured here caused me no small amount of grief, especially in the headlamp circuitry, making me familiar with them. First of all, they are much easier to open up and enter to fix, as many of them have fiberboard faces. what you will find in side is that the male connector prongs become loose and can be tightened and service life prolonged. And, of course, the are not numbered like the Bosch protocol. The very good news is that they are still readily available through many british car servicers, as they would be well out of business with out them. If I recall one can de-cifer the numbers of the pins by tracing the numbers to the function, or opening them up and comparing the guts to the diagram on the Bosch relay diagram on the side of the Bosch. This seems convoluted, but if you love your old cars, you just have to massage them, like an old mate. Or get a newer pet/toy. Jq.
     

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