hi, i'm new to this board and on the fence about getting a TR or a 348. i've always been a bmw and p-car but always wanted an f-car so this will be my first one. the cost of service ($5k-8K for 30K) always scared me but after seeing one of the guys on the board doing it himself kinda made me confident. i'm not a master tech but can handle a wrench. My question is that, will the selling price of the car be affected if you did your own service as oppose to a certified shop? Will a potential buyer be turned off if you show him records of parts purchased and no labor receipts since you did it yourself. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
I would never buy a DIY serviced car unless the guy had the credentials to back it up. Several people on this board do actually have those credentials.......but it takes time to figure out who they are. Having said that, some shops, dealers or otherwise, are probably just as bad as an unqualified DIY'er. That is the problem IMHO........figuring out who is actually good at what they do.
Its all nuts & bolts. It all depends on your capabilities. In comparison to todays automobiles,The Testarossa is a simple, strait forward (although can be a pain in the a..) vehicle.
Put another way, and I don't recall the source.... "I want the guy building my engine to be doing it for the fiftieth time, not the first.." LOL! I have a friend with 30 year's experience in German cars, and he refuses to touch my cars. So I guess there's a lot of specialized knowledge to deal with.. I was really upset when my close friend that had been maintaining the cars passed away last year.....
I concur. A service history from a reputable Ferrari shop is usually the first thing anyone will tell you to look for when buying a Ferrari. That said, a 348 isn't a very expensive car at this point, so while you would take a hit at selling time it's not like you'd be losing tens of thousands of dollars. Also you might really enjoy working on the car as a hobby in itself, so the satisfaction there might actually be the payoff for you.
I was chatting with Gary Bobileff during the recent major on my 328, and he was giving me the tour with car disassembled. He said that working on these cars can be frustrating to even experienced German car mechanics, so your statement rings true.
I did all my own Majors on my 512TR. Wasn't too bad. Could do it again and even do a better job than this one. http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172024&highlight=512tr+make Just know what you are getting into and research before you play. If I keep this car I will eventually completely rebuild the engine to specs to make it a completely new car. Right now it's not even close to being at that point...I just like to work on these cars.
Dear Ferraristi, Good luck with your search ! ...buy a TR. service cost aren't going to be thaaaaat much more than the 348. Both have their issues and you can find all you need on those subjects by using the search. If you are coming from P / German cars, get ready for crazy issues that would never show up on a blitz wagon. You will notice pop rivets, fiberglass and "questionable" build quality but once you get out of the Ferrari from a drive....you will say "I need a smoke" ....even if you don't Owner service... Look at the condition of the car. Usually most DIY'ers have impeccably maintained cars. The receipts will back up the work. Most of us that work on our cars do it in a way that a shop could never make money. I only mean that by, " I'm in here...oh look, I'll spend a day cleaning that, then get back to the task at hand." Majors are stuff left to the real DIY'er/ armature mechanics or a good shop (Rifledriver, Fastradio Tbakowasky, 2NA) Timing belt, cam timing, resealing the water pumps are really for the pros.....unless you are Carguy, Silver1998gts, Steve Magnessun,Vincenco....you'll get to know the players once you hang around here for awhile. If the car you're looking at has shop records or lots of receipts, that's a good sign. Just have a PPI done and still prepare for some unforeseen expences...no, I don't mean a broken timing belt. Shamile Freeze...Miami Vice !
Adam, I just viewed the work you did on your 512TR. Is the house next door for sale? I'm moving next door! If you plan to move to the city by the bay, I'll find you a house close to mine. Kidding aside, you did a fantastic job! Are you a master tech? Any formal training? As my original post, I'm pretty handy with the wrench but never done anything close to a major service but looks very straight forward and with the help of you guys it's not impossible. I agree that the owner of the car will do a lot better job than a mechanic at a shop. Any special tools that are exclusive to Ferrari needed for a major? This is the car that I'm considering but I will wait till Dec, still have a lot to learn. http://www.specialtysales.com/1991-ferrari-testarossa--c-1632.htm Any Bay Area guys seen this one? Thanks for the feedback guys. Joey
Dear Ferraristi, Ummm.....Joey, fill out your profile. The 91 TR you're looking at looks nice. Upgraded 512TR wheels, Tubi, painted skirts ( questionable upgrade ) also look closely, upgraded 512TR tail lights. If the car checks out, why wait till Dec? It could be gone by then. The Tubi is 4K, the 512TR wheels are 4k +rubber, tail lights 1800? If you buy any other Testarossa without the TR wheels, you will have a harder time finding quality rubber. When my current set runs down on my 91, I'll be upgrading to the TR wheel as well.....no real choice. Shamile Freeze....Miami Vice !
Not a master tech, but know allot about cars. Done allot of work on Vipers. Infact that's how I started out. All self taught. I also have a Diablo I did the same with the 512TR. Here's a partial thread of it. I have many friends that are also car enthusiasts that like to give a helping hand in either drinking my beer or wrenching....yeah we all have one of those kinds of friends...LOL! http://www.viperalley.com/forum/garage/55285-official-get-my-damn.html
That doesn't look too good. That's the problem here in CA, smog is too strict and will get even worst. I just don't get it, next door is Mexico w/ no air regulation whatsoever. I guess we have an invisible air shield around cali and texas. Are the TR's notorious for having emissions problems, I guess w/o the readings it's hard to tell what's happening.
My take is that the TR is not the place to learn "How to do a Major Service for Dummies". Start with a 328 or 308 sidewinder V-8. As someone who started working overhauling his own MGB because there was no money after the initial purchase, I say learn to walk before you run. Eventually I became an A and P ( Aircraft ) mechanic. Eventually rebuilt engines that the dealer said couldn't be rebuilt. ( M6 ) I can do this work. At some point, as in my last major, it comes to; do I really want to spend the TIME and effort to learn this particular car ? My answer was no. Thats what experts are for. If I had unlimited time then , yes, I would do it. PS; Correct belt tension is where its at.
Don't even THINK about doing your own major unless you have plenty of time (for me it was months) and seriously want to get it right. My engine had a second R&R to get the water pump seal right and may yet have a 3rd R&R to degree the cams (long story based in a life event that cut short my time availability). The learning curve for these cars is steep. The variety of parts and interim changes thru the years can be baffling - even to our sponsor parts company(s). I'd work a half weekend - need a part & then air ship it during the next workweek to get started back in the following weekend. It can be frustrating if the calendar is closing in on you. One thing for sure, it takes a lot of time & effort to get it right and do it well. If your local shop does it 'right & well' - they are worth the money. If they do it like a typical flat rate mechanic & charge you full tilt - you'll be ripped off for sure. The car will be damaged. I would never again take the car to a less than VERY experienced FCar mechanic. Living in Anchorage drove me to the DIY process. After learning the intricacies of this car, I am VERY glad that I did not give it to the local 'import auto' place in Anchorage. The thought sends shivers. Me - - my pleasure comes from working on the car & I am eagerly looking forward to the next time I can get back into the car with some upgraded diagnostic equipment. If you feel you have sufficient competence - FChat is the best place to be. Get plenty of time in front of you & go for it. These FChat guys are great & the wealth of knowledge makes us DIY'rs humble! Rgds, Vince
I totally agree with Vincenzo....heed his advice. I have performed 3 engine-out major services as a do it yourselfer. One service went totally smooth with no problems, but the other two had a few issues that resulted in a lot more time and effort to complete. Except for the electrical system, the Testarossa is pretty simple and straight forward. Fchat has several great professionals that share advice with us "novices" and as many realize.....this advice is priceless!!!! This group of experienced people can be counted on both hands, and they should be treated as royalty. I can't count the number of a-holes they've pulled out of the meat grinder when problems arise. Graphic descriptions aside...this forum is terrific! I can honestly say that even with my years of mechanical experience working on, and restoring cars, that I would never have bought a Ferrari if not for the support I get here on Fchat. Thank Goodness for this site....because it allowed me to realize a childhood dream of owning and driving an exotic car.
Welcome to the board Joey. Here is my 2.cents worth, (but it could save you 10s of thousands) 1) If you plan to buy a TR or 348 and your looking at a 40-50K car, there is a good chance your starting off with a rough car to begin with.........meaning , some butcher has been in there before you a few times making a mess....so your gonna start off with a car that probably (good chance) doesnt have all the pieces in the right spot. So, you should really consider buying the best car you can afford upfront...better chance when someone goes in there, they will find ferrari italian tiny screws and bolts, and not the home depot, GM, pep boys parts that were McKivered in there. 2) If you havent taken apart a ferrari before, then the TR for sure is not the one to learn on.......especially since you mentioned that 5-8K scared you.....this is not a Chevy 350 engine...the enginerring in these cars, makes it almost impossible to shoe horn in similar parts, you need to use exact parts 3) If your asking about resale (before you even bought the car)......you maybe dontwant to get into a ferrari, a TR or 348....prices seem to be soft on these cars, and if you buy a car and the VIN already shows 10 owner in 20 yrs, and you do the same, it will create alot of negative feedback again upon resale (why is he selling so fast)....with that many flips, a serious buyer will always have that in the back of hos head that the car doenst run right. So, if you buy, make sure you have the cookies upfront to buy it, and an additional 15% of your purchase price as a fund to draw on it for serivce, maintence and unexpected issues (god forbid). If your trying to buy one of these and your not ready(financially)you will be pissed that it will spend more time in the shop than on the road. Please remember that these are exoitcs, and Enzo ferrari never intended them to be for the working class, but for the elite....so even though pricing of a used car is in reach of many, thats only the price of addmision. The real test comes whe you want you want to drive it and enjoy the music at 6,000 rpm. Think exotic, not Ford casue if you dont,your wallet will sure let you know for you Enjoy the ride amigo !!
Thanks for the advice guys, the wealth of information here is amazing. I'm still in learning as much as I can before I jump in. Actually I'm looking to spend between $60-70K. I'm financially capable in purchasing and maintaining a TR or else I wouldn't be thinking of getting one. When I mentioned $5-8K for service scared me, what I meant was I don't think it's reasonable. Just because you have a F-car doesn't mean you have a sign around your neck that says "I'm loaded, feel free to rip me off". I worked hard for my money and just don't like to burn it like that. (just my humble opinion) I don't consider myself as an elite that was born with a silver spoon, just a working class guy who did well in Silicon Valley. That's why boards like this is valuable, most guys on here I'm sure can afford to pay a mechanic for service but if you have the time and knowledge to DIY, the satisfaction you get in working on your own car is priceless. When you mentioned parts, who would not use exact parts for their car! (any make) where did you get the impression I was thinking Ford?
It is reasonable when you consider that the balance of the 5 to 8k is simply for labor. You are paying a guy to take the engine completely out of the car, do a timing belt service that involves WAY MORE than just changing out a couple of belts. Add in a water pump rebuild, install new cam belt tensioner bearings/pulleys, change any and all hoses that are suspect (water and fuel), pull the cam covers and check/reshim all 48 valves (no adjusters), install cam seals, DEGREE THE CAMS, add a bunch of "while you are in there" items and finally reinstall the engine, do a tune-up, make sure everything works and it passes emissions. This isn't a two day job and at 80 to 100.00 @ hour times 5 to 8 days plus parts the cost is quite reasonable. It would cost you close to the same to have the same amount of work done on a Toyota if that were the case.
Joey; You seem to be an experienced DIY. Am I right ? Yes you can do it. Its not rocket science but it does involve intelligence, experience, and time. If you have those then do it. These are simply machines. A bit more involved than a Toyota but the principle is the same. There are some who throw money at them because they have bought into the mystique. Some "experts" cultivate this myth. The TR is THE killer Ferrari deal if you can DIY majors.
You mis understood my point ( i believe). As long as you are financialy capable then your fine, you would be surprised how many people are not. I think its hard to rip people off in todays environment. There is alot of information out there, and majority of buyers (that shop around) know what prices are for any product, when you mentioned that 5-8k scares you, i was simply referring to other major things that may potentially go wrong....have you seen the price of the "board" for the Tr lately ??? Do you know what it costs to fix a potential tranny issue on this car ? this is all i was refferring to. You also mentioned that you never had an Fcar before,i was merley fore warning of issues that could potentially cost you more than 5-8K....and thats not getting ripped off, its reality If you feel confident to take on a TR for a full service, by all means.....unfortunately with these cars (most times) its not what you know....but how much you have in the bank to answer you question of resale, if you document your car with parts and take pictures (like many of use do) before and after when you do the services, there should be no reason to hurt resale value......just make sure you adjust those 48 valves when you do the service on the TR, its a beeeyotch to go back and redo that baby Good luck on your purchase !
Dear Ferraristi, Joey, Don't be put off. If you are a diy'er in general, you will be able to do most on your car except perhaps the major....for now. I'm sure once you buy the car, get used to it and it's indosyncries....you'll know your way around. I think what everyone is saying....that 50K car may not be the bargain it seems to be. OK, I know since then, you posted that you're not a bottom feeder. Just get a nice car, do a PPI and expect some upfront expences. My experience with Ferrari/ Lamborghini cars is that no matter how good it is and that it's a "dealer" car, I've always had to put about 10K into it as a kinda initiation expense....not just mechanical...but, oh, that's got a scratch....oh that label is flaking off....the heat has warped that...you get the idea. That's the upfront stuff you get. Allot of this stuff comes from simple age...the newest Testarossa (91) is now 17 years old. Most people don't buy 17 year old cars....it of course will have more to be done....not just because it's a Ferrari. I hope you will take all the advise here to be in YOUR best interest. We would like to see you enjoy the best 12's Ferrari Made.....Freeze...Miami Vice ! Shamile Freeze...Miami Vice !
