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Your Opinion On Torque v HP

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Rapalyea, Oct 15, 2015.

  1. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
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    Although I have not driven a 3.4 I am a bit jeleaus because its peak torgue is about a thousand rpm lower then the 5,400 rpm for my 3.2. In order to get that 'racy' full power rush from my 3.2 I often do a 6,000 rpm shift. Seems you might get the same effect in a 3.4 at only 5,000. On the other hand the 6,000 rpm sounds really neat.....
     
  2. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    I think with the Mondial it doesn't really matter, I only get full grins when running the taq to redline, anything under 4-5 K is just good...but not ear to ear great...whether with the 8 or the t...all that matters is when running at full blast! i think going to 1k to 7k is just as exhilarating in any of the 4 iterations!

    Cheers
     
  3. davebdave

    davebdave Formula 3
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    Mar 18, 2007
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    Don't know the numbers but the t is in the power 4000 rpm and above. Below 3000 it's pretty tame. Still, anytime the hammer is down I'm headed for the redline.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
     
  4. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,046
    PB County, Florida
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    Jerry
    If you want to go fast, you would prefer the car be at or near the rpm torque peak AFTER you shift to the next higher gear. 5400 rpm is where you want to be after the shift, so that gives you more reason to go for much higher rpm shifts when you are in a hurry or want to go fast.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  5. sidtx

    sidtx F1 Rookie
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    Feb 9, 2014
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    When the engine is wailing at 6000 RPM, I'm not caring too much about torque, horsepower, or much of anything!!!

    Love that Ferrari scream!

    For low end torque, nothing beats a good old fashioned big displacement American V8!
    I also love that low, angry growl of the American V8s. Not quite as much as the Ferrari scream!!

    Sid
     
  6. rob

    rob F1 Rookie

    May 22, 2002
    3,519
    Vt
    Horsepower is how fast you are going when you hit the wall and torque is how far you push it after.
     
  7. rob

    rob F1 Rookie

    May 22, 2002
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    My little Honda has 240 horsepower but only 153 ft lb's of torque and a very high power band starting at 6000 r.p.m. and ending at 9k. The downside I have found from having such a high r.p.m. range and low torque is twofold with one being you have to get up to speed to even start getting into the power band and the other is with not much torque you don't feel or realize how fast you are going until you look at your speedo or pass a law enforcement officer.
     
  8. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 Veteran
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    Nov 25, 2010
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    #8 Todd308TR, Oct 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. rob

    rob F1 Rookie

    May 22, 2002
    3,519
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    I've had a lot of high torque cars one being a Pontiac T-37 with a 455 and over 500ftlb's of torque. I've driven a few duramax pickups love the torque very bottom end off idle till about 3k.
     
  10. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    I like to have a bit of both.....
    HP sells cars, torque wins races....;-)
     
  11. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
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    I put 8psi possitive displacement supercharger on top of my Mark VII 5.0. Talk about torque! In order to tame down for a simple suburban quick stop-light-start I had to do two things. First, switch from a 3.73 gear (wow) into a 2.73 gear. And THAT was not enough to tame it down. So I installed an 1,800 rpm stall truck torque converter to replace the 2,200 stock unit. Perfect. I could still torque brake into a ruined 1/4 mile run, but on the street I just floored it and was simply gone. No engine noise. No tire noise. Just gone.

    That car was like a quiet bank vault at 130 mph at 3,000 rpm. After 190,000 miles ruinied it with a 347 stroker and street cam and the same 8 psi. JEEEZZZZ. Sometimes you CAN have too much power. Plus the rest of the car was showing some of its 190,000 miles. So. Swapped it out for a complete rebuild of my 1965 Corvair convetible.

    However, I liked the original Mark VII so much I have attempted to duplicate it with a 1988 near show room example that came up for sale. So far it is a botched job. I planned for it to be my old-man's car. You know, lets go "motoring" instead of driving. Very perfect for that. But its not cooperating with the same model Kenne Bell TS-1000 blower. Irritating. In the mean time I have a 7,000 rpm Ferrari in which to pass my time.

    Things could be worse.
     
  12. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
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    Hey ROB! You have reminded me that my 5.0 @ 7.5 psi (1/2 atmosphere) was, about, almost, exactly, like a 455. But check my math for me! The 5.0 was good up to about 5,000 rpm. Maybe a little less. The 347 stroker with cam and the same blower was just very very mean. Even my local wrench thought it a bit of a handfull even at 5.0 psi.
     
  13. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
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    Yeah Sid, I am a conflicted man. I am a Midwest Ohio Yank raised on honking V-8 detroit iron. Z-28, blown 5.0 Mark VII etc. But there is really something to say for that rush up to 7,000 rpms in my little itty bitty 3.2 Ferrari. And frankly, it is faster then a lot of that old iron. Even the blown Mark VII only turned 14.4. Sure, that was with 4,000 lbs and 2.73 gears.

    The thing with these 3.2 cars is they are actually decent shade tree mechanic wonders. And the are NOT dog slow. They are very very entertaining and forgiving at whatever street speeds I drive. Never been towed in. Installed that $20 intermediate starter solinoid and might as well be cranking my 1965 Corvair. The local wrench got over his initial "WTF" attitude right away and looks forward to the next project, whatever that might be. I figured to keep him happy and bought four new CV joints, front rotors, pads and a used oil cooler.

    He wants to do the belts next, having already done the clutch I scattered a couple of years ago on my own responsibility. So I don't know what else to say. I bought the car for the hell of it and it was seriously the right thing to have done.
     
  14. sidtx

    sidtx F1 Rookie
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    Feb 9, 2014
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    #14 sidtx, Oct 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Dabbled all my life in cars, nothing exotic. VWs, Karman Ghias, Mercedes, Ford Trucks. The closest I got to an exotic before the Mondi, was a 1978 Buick Turbo Regal - first year of issue, long before they became the "Grand National". Being a young man, I had to prove the car at every stoplight. Blew the engine within 2 months of ownership - threw a rod.

    I got into the Mondial somewhat hesitantly. Always wanted a Ferrari, but was somewhat afraid because of the Exotic reputation. Have since found that, while a Ferrari, it's really just another car. A really fine car, that's fun to drive, and sounds killer, but at it's core, just another car.

    Like you, I found it surprising easy to work on, and big surprise to me - easy to drive. I've come to love this thing. So much that I doubt she will ever leave my garage. Personally, I think the Mondial is one of the best Ferraris ever produced. She just does everything really well, in a friendly kinda way.

    My good ownership experience has also inspired me to think about other Italian cars. Lambos are out of what I want to pay for a fun car, but Maseratis have some interesting possibilities. Alfas and Fiats also have some interesting models. I kinda like the look of the X 1/9. Another thought I keep having is that it might be fun to acquire a carbed Ferrari - maybe a 308GT4? Who knows - but that's for another day.

    Right now, the Mondial is down (but not out) for an interior restoration. I've got all the interior removed and I am in the process of restoring the leather. In all my years of owning/working on/playing with cars, I've never ventured into leather repair/restoration. So far, so good. Although I have to admit, that it was a very difficult few minutes where I had to force myself to put the lacquer thinner soaked rag on the leather surface. That just seemed wrong!!! (Turns out it worked great on this old lacquer dyed leather).

    Here's a pic of her in undressed state - or as we southerners might say - "Here's a Neked pikture"

    Sorry for the blurred pic, I took that one in a hurry, after we raised her back up on the lift.

    Sid
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  15. carwhisperer

    carwhisperer Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2014
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    Sacramento, CA
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    Brian
    Torque and horsepower are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are numerically equal at 5252rpm. For every engine. Not because of magic, but because the definitions of each are linked via that number. Take a 2.9l engine that makes 179 ft-lbs of torque at 5000 rpm. Now take a lever arm of one foot and attach it to the crank. Apply 179 pounds. That's your 179 ft-lbs. Now apply that force for one revolution. That's a force of 179 pounds applied for a distance (circumference) of (2pi)(1) ft. So now you have done 179*2pi=1125 ft-lbs. of work (same units as torque, but different measure). Power is work per time. We now multiply that by 5000 revolutions per minute and are doing 5623451 ft-lbs/minute of work. One horsepower is 33000 ft-lbs/minute of work. So divide the two numbers and we get 170hp. Therefor, the poor little Italian V8 is making 170hp when it is making 179 ft-lbs of torque. Notice that 170 is kinda close to 179 and that 5000rpm is close to the torque/hp crossover rpm of 5252.

    Like it or not, peak hp and weight are the two numbers that correlate best to a car's 1/4 mile ET. Say all you want about torque, gearing, etc, but a 1/4 mile ET calculator/estimator will ask you for hp and weight, but not torque.

    By the way, from a power to weight ratio, a Mondial T is right near 10lbs/hp which is kind of on the cusp of a sort of quick car. There are plenty of cars these days at 7-8lbs/hp and really fast these days is 5lbs/hp. Older, stock Mondials are pretty slow. Sorry, but it's true.

    Like
     
  16. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
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    Good post Brian ^^ !!
     
  17. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 Veteran
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    Nov 25, 2010
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    Loved to see pictures of both Mark VIIs.
     
  18. felkind

    felkind Karting

    Jul 20, 2015
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    Nashua, NH
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    Fred
    Like what you had to say about other Italian cars - except the X1/9. Had one brand new and got rid of it as fast as I could. Slow car, terrible heater, and a body that rusted everywhere due to poor quality. And I traded in a BMW 2002tii for it. I bought it because it was a Road and Track (IIRC) ten best that year. It is one of the only cars I didn't regret getting rid of.
     

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