Why the Lack of F1 Style Semi-Auto Trannys? | FerrariChat

Why the Lack of F1 Style Semi-Auto Trannys?

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by Xanadu, Sep 30, 2004.

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  1. Xanadu

    Xanadu Rookie

    Jul 23, 2004
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    Scott
    Maybe this is a stupid question, or maybe it has been covered before, but why do some of the leading manufacturers still fail to offer an F1 style semi-auto transmission? I would love to see the Viper offered with this. I understand that Chrysler is not involved with F1, but Ford certainly was and they do not offer it in the higher end Jaguar XKR. What gives? Why hasn't IRL or CART moved in time with technology? Sure there are die hard purists who will only have a manual shifter, but I can't understand why manufacturers are still using technology that dates back to the turn of the LAST century. Is it just R & D costs? I would think that it would not be as drastic today as it was 10 years ago with all of the most major developments behind now. I just don't understand. Someone please enlighten me.

    scott
    www.critistaff.com
     
  2. 911Fan

    911Fan Formula 3

    Apr 15, 2004
    1,294
    Southern California
    We die hard purists are trying our best to keep the manufacturers from taking all the fun out of driving!

    If we don't collectively put our foot down, we're going to end up with sports cars which are more like an amusement park ride than a fully involving driving experience.

    IMO, Ferrari, Porsche, and the others are headed in the wrong direction with technology intensive nannified products. They should each offer at least one pure sports car along the lines of the Elise.
     
  3. Xanadu

    Xanadu Rookie

    Jul 23, 2004
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    Scott
    Thanks for the reply 911.

    I think that I understand the idea behind why some still want a manual tranny, but to me with the F1 style shifter, a driver will be able to wring the very most he possibly can out of a car, without having to be spending thoughts about clutch and reaching down to a shifter. Taking those out of the equation leaves one to be more able to drive harder, hence the reason why F1 has gone in that direction. So what's the reasoning for IRL or CART not going in that direction? I somewhat think that if those 2 had gone the way of Semi-Auto shifting years ago, today we would be seeing Vipers, Vettes and even the Mustangs offered with Semi-Auto shifters.

    scott
    www.critistaff.com
     
  4. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
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    Screw that, we should just go to CVT.
     
  5. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
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    May 24, 2004
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    I think a lot will move to it. At least that's what I've been told. The AMG ver. of MB has up/downshift behind the steering wheel. So does BMW..........

    It's coming
     
  6. aawil

    aawil Formula 3

    Aug 10, 2002
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    Cart and IRL are sequential they just don't have paddles.
     
  7. Doug.

    Doug. F1 Rookie
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    Apr 16, 2004
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    Because it is more fun to drive a performance-car with a regular manual transmission. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Mazda, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin...all offer F1-style tranny's, the list goes on, but who needs more?
     
  8. Xanadu

    Xanadu Rookie

    Jul 23, 2004
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    Really, I didnt know CART & IRL had sequential gear boxes. I'm not that big into that racing but I could have sworn that the last race I saw, at glances at a sports bar not too long ago, I saw manual shifting. Maybe I was hallucinating. Anyway, I know the Bimmers have it as an option; was kinda looking at a 330 Ci Convertable & was reading that the Seq. gearbox was definitely the way to go. I just think it would be great if the Viper, Vette, Mustangs, GT40 was at least offered with the SG. IMO, if its a sports car, offer a manual or a SG (ie 360, 430, Murcie, Gall, etc) not a full auto or manual.
     
  9. Xanadu

    Xanadu Rookie

    Jul 23, 2004
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    I understand this, BUT, where has the American cars gone? Only Mazda and other Euro cars were mentioned by you as offering a SG. I did not know this about Mazda. But how cool would it be if the Saleen S7 were offered with a SG? Or other American made sports cars. As best I know, there are not any American sports cars offered with SG.
     
  10. McLaren_boy

    McLaren_boy Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2003
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    Hopefully you don't buy these cars just for their out-right speed, but also for the enjoyment they give while driving, and at least when I drive my humble Toyota, I get a lot of enjoyment from operating the clutch and throttle myself. If I make a nice, clean downshift, it was me, not some computer, and that brings satisfaction that I don't think a computer operated gearbox can.

    Why would you want a Viper with a F1 box? That car isn't about needless electronic nannies, it is about having a simple (not an insult to the Viper) car that goes really fast. I think it is a bit foolish to put all of these electronics on cars, what happens when one of these things breaks? Thousands of dollars minimum to fix something that really wasn't needed in the first place. No matter what you say, the F1 gearbox is another one of these liabilities, it is much more expensive than a standard manual, and it has many more moving parts, its just one more thing to break on a cars that already have way to many things waiting to break.

    The day they stop making new cars with real manuals is the day I stop buying new cars, its as simple as that.

    No, sequential as in, racing gearbox, not F1-style, there are no crazed computers shifting for you. It doesn't require you to depress the clutch to up-shift. They have a clutch, but it is only used for starting off, and depending on how long you want the gearbox to last, downshifting. They usually use straight-cut gears and are not long-life gearboxes. They are loud, expensive and unsuitable for road-use; (TVR is currently developing one though, leave it to them to take the un-traveled route :)) but shift quicker than a standard manual because you don't have to use the clutch.

    What you saw was the driver pulling the gearshift to change gears, because you still change the gears manually (its sort of like crash-box shifting your standard manual gearbox, except these are designed to take it), there's no computer.

    F1 is just a standard gearbox with a computer doing all of the clutch-throttle work, it actually even decides whether or not to shift. It takes a lot of skill out of driving. Although its useful on a track, I don't think it belongs on road cars that will never see the track.
     
  11. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

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    The only automakers with true sequentials on the market are Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini and BMW. And on BMW it is only available on the E46 M3 or the new M5. Certainly not as maintstream as one would imply.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Technophobia comes in many degrees. Some would argue that if you did not start the car with a hand crank, adjust the timing with a lever on the steering wheel, shift the car without benefit of syncronizers, stop the car by a lever outside the cockpit operating pitiful rear brakes, you have not really had the REAL experience. Different people enjoy things in different ways. Some enjoy photography using antique studio cameras, some prefer modern digital ones but I bet both enjoy them greatly. People pick and choose their technology, some just want to freeze it in a place and time they are comfortable with, but in my mind little of it is bad.
     
  13. McLaren_boy

    McLaren_boy Formula Junior

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    Hey, if you want a computer to drive for you that's cool with me...
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Your Toyota prob has several performing tasks all the time. But my point is yours are OK but the owner of an F1's are not?
     
  15. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    It is also an option on the 6ers as well as 330Ci coupes.
     
  16. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Which Mazda? I know Toyota has one, but I was not aware of Mazda's.
     
  17. Ershank

    Ershank Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2004
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    Production cars really arent potent enough to get the maximum potential out of a semi-auto tranny anyway, and the roads arent a racetrack where you can record a 1/10 second gain in lap time....

    The manual transmission weighs less, costs less, requires less maintenance. It gives the user a feeling of accomplishment.

    If as a street rider you think you NEED a semi-auto tranny, you're kidding yourself. You're not Mario Andretti, and you're not using the car to its full potential anyway.

    I'll keep running my Toyota on the manual tranny, and I'll still be more of a driver than the poser with his semi-auto.
     
  18. Doug.

    Doug. F1 Rookie
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    Although i have the manual version, the Mazda RX-8 Auto comes with paddles on the steering wheel.
     
  19. Doug.

    Doug. F1 Rookie
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    The reason is America has never needed to use this technology because most true red-blooded Americans will tell you they don't want paddles on the back of their steering wheel when driving an S7, GT, Viper, C6, etc. In my opinion, that's a European kinda thing. Seeing F1 is like the NASCAR of the USA more Europeans seem to prefer paddle-shifters than Americans.
     
  20. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    #20 tbakowsky, Oct 1, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I had a 355 F1 spider for the evening and most of the day today. I did not like it. It was fun for about ten minutes but after that all I could think about was clutch wear. It seems you can feel it wearing out as you leave the stop light!!. On the highway it was nice just to flic a paddel to downshift when needed..but I totaly missied the shifter. I did not feel in complete control of the car at all.

    At one point I clicked into neutral thinking the light was going to be red for a while because normaly it's and avanced arrow intersection. Well the light turned green just as I was slowing down. I clicked the up shift padel and the damn thing put in in sixth gear!! What would have happend if there was sombody behined me and was not paying attention? Thats right wham-o. With the manuel I could have just shifted into second and been off like anybody else. Driving around town is a pain aswell.
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  21. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    An 'auto with paddles' does not count. No way no how.
     
  22. McLaren_boy

    McLaren_boy Formula Junior

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    Yes, my Toyota has an ECU if that's what your asking...and it does all kinds of wonderful things that help increase power while also increasing fuel mileage and engine life. I have no problem with that computer.

    I'm not going to argue this anymore, its a moot point. You obviously enjoy F1-style gearboxes, and that's great. I obviously prefer standard manuals, we will leave it that. :)
     
  23. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
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    Why does every topic discussing the F1 Trans become a sounding board for opinions on if you like it? The topic is a valid one.......... and it would be nice to get answers on the issue - not on if you like it. Face it, it is all personal preference. Some people like manual, some like F1. Some like B/W tvs, some like HDTV Plasmas. Some like flat chested girls, and others like playboy hotties. Some like shacks with outhouses, and others like mansions on a cliff overlooking the Pacific. I think you get the idea......................

    You do make a valid point about cost associated with the F1 and "If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up". If not, get the manual........




    :D All in fun...............
     
  24. Xanadu

    Xanadu Rookie

    Jul 23, 2004
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    Thanks for everyones input, even if it was a little on the harsh side. I agree exactly with Jet, I was just wanting the answer to the question, not whether or not you like it. As I said before, I think it would be great if the manufacturers would offer BOTH, for everyone to get what they want and we can all be happy. Wouldn't that be nice, a way for us all to be happy and not have to bash each other for what they want or prefer? It's probably somewhat safe to say, that most of us would agree that any sports car should lastly come equipped with a full auto transmission. But, even though the majority says this, there are going to be hundreds of thousands of people who will not want to be bothered with a clutch or shifting gears. They want a sports car that they can enjoy without the manual transmission of any sort. Go to any Corvette show and see the thousand retired folks (no offense) enjoying Vettes as they have for 30 years, but they want an Automatic. Some want the full feeling of being in complete control of everything as with a full manual transmission. Fine; if they make it, you all will come. Lastly, there are those who would like to see sports cars equipped with a SG; a paddle shifted semi-auto gearbox where they can keep the hands on the wheel at all times, pedal to the metal without needing to clutch. It's not a full automatic, there is still control over the shifting, and even if the computer says its time to shift, its probably because its time to shift so ya don't pop a seal somewhere bad. Back to my original question . . . why can't the manufacturers offer today's technology for those who desire todays technology with their sports cars? I did not say one was better than another and the manual should be outlawed world wide. Make a manual for those who want it. Fine by me. My feelings are not hurt. Make an auto for those who want it as well (although as I said, IMO, I think the full auto should be the last consideration for a manufacturer to consider in a sports car but i bet half of all Vettes and Mustangs are sold as automatics). But why can't they also offer the latest technology that's been around now for more that 10 years? Some of you answered that question, others jumped on the bashing bandwagon. It was not meant to go there, but it did. Maybe those who are so dead set against technology are also just nervous about the manuals becoming a thing of the past. It's a valid feeling I suppose. Yeah, I don't think that shifting by SG while driving over to Ma's for meatloaf will be any faster than in a manual, but I think it should be considered to be an option by America's automakers.

    My 2 cents.

    Best,

    scott
    www.critistaff.com
     
  25. Xanadu

    Xanadu Rookie

    Jul 23, 2004
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    Thanks for the info about CART & IRL. I learned something new.

    scott
    www.critistaff.com
     

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