Why should a Ferrari F355 Challenge be cheaper then a Porsche Cup Car from the 90is?

On the contrary, far from being "insane" it's very, very rare (and in a much sought after hue).
In the modern air-cooled road going GT/RS hierarchy, the 993 GT2 is right at the top of the tree when it comes to desirability.
As for why there's such a price disparity between Cup and Challenge cars : As a Porsche guy I see them (all Cup cars) as well engineered and bombproof, as opposed to the 348, 355 and 360 Challenge cars which I perceive (rightly or wrongly) to be highly strung, temperamental and displaying questionable reliability.

Additionally the factory stopped making air-cooled cars in '96-7, we'll not see their like again and lots of individuals now realise that the unique character found in the air-cooled cars wasn't replicated with the watercooled iterations. Some might say the same happened with the evolution of the engine from the 360 to the 430, but whilst the character between the engines may differ slightly, the experience is intrinsically the same. That can't said for the flat six watercooled and aircooled engines.

And whilst there's no doubting that any work on a 911 based Cup car will contain a certain element of "Porsche tax", it won't be anything like as punitive as the equivalent "Ferrari tax".
Furthermore, sourcing parts for a Cup cars isn't impossible, can the same be said for the Challenge cars ? (genuine question).

However ..... having said all the above, which would I rather have in the garage, a 991 Cup or 458 Challenge Evo ? Clue, it would have a mid mounted engine with 8 cylinders in a vee formation

 

1995 Porsche 911 GT2 | London 2016 | RM Sotheby's

£1.8M

Like I said, rare and sought after ....

 

Just picking your brain here since I used to own a 993 but never drove a water-cooled 911 so can't compare. What's so "unique" about the air cooled models, is it just the noise? If that's it, you can argue the 355 is unique enough from a noise point of view compared to a 430 and 458. I guess the 360 sounds a bit different too but still retains that F1 noise compared to the 430 and later models.

So if that's the case, there is the same difference in jumping between a 993 to a 996/997 and a 355 to a 360/430.

 

Apologies for the lengthy reply in advance .....

I first got into Porsche back in 2001 at the age of 38. I was never really a Ferrari or Lambo guy ( though I'd always loved the 308 GTB since I was kid), and the same applied to 911's after seeing a black 3.3 turbo pulling off from a set of stoplights as a teenager....

After a couple of Ford RS models I moved on to some limited edition Subarus P1 (UK only) and a couple of Impreza 22B Type UK's (very rare, only 16 built). The first got stolen (a massive problem in the UK back in 2000) the second became all but uninsurable due to the theft claim.

Looking for something hardcore, focused, unassuming and quick, I remembered a magazine article in 911 and Porsche World that extolled the virtues of the 964 RS.

Back when the RS was launched it was derided for it overly hard suspension, minimalist interior and heft price tag (close to, or more expensive than a 965 Turbo back in 1992).
Thus some 8 years after it's launch, the RS was unknown, unloved, and that was reflected in the asking prices for them (I paid $31,000 for my first 964 RS back in 2001.....)

I test drove my first car prior to buying it, and found it very hardcore, heavy brakes, heavy clutch, hair trigger throttle, heavy (unassisted) steering, squeaky brakes, and an incredibly stiff ride, so all in all a pretty unpleasant experience ! !

But beyond all the above, I could see the bigger picture, this really was a pure, hardcore road racer with superb Germanic build quality.

I bought the car, had a new clutch fitted along with new standard brake pads, the ride heights raised and the geometry set back to standard. On top of that I had a decat pipe fitted and the car remapped accordingly.

The end result liberated 282hp and the brake, clutch and suspension replacements/adjustments transformed the car so it drove as its makers had intended.

I went on to own 3 further 964 RS's and a 993 RS before I moved on to the watercooled cars in the form of a Mk1 996 GT3 (X4), a 996 GT2 (X2), a 997 GT3 (X2) and a 996 GT3 RS.

The early watercooled cars (specifically the 996) were a quantum leap forward over the aircooled cars. The leap from my 993 RS to the Mk1 996 GT3 was almost unbelieveable, such was the refinement, power and sheer ability of the 996 engine and chassis)

But with every new iteration of the watercooled 911, something was lost in terns of tactility, engagement and character. The only caveat to that was a Mk1 GT3 I owned that had a Manthey K400 engine upgrade, Ohlins dampers and bigger Mk2 brakes) I saw that as the equivalent of a modern day 964 RS but with 120 hp more and suspension and brakes that were on a different level to that of the earlier car, this whilst retaining the compact and intimate cabin dimensions of the 964/993.

Here's my summation/eulogy of/to the 964 RS. I hope it opens the door to some of the more subtle nuances that can be found in what was probably one of the most driver focused, affordable and hardcore road cars Porsche saw fit to make. They were the very essence of 911 ness distilled.
This particular piece was prompted by an individual in the UK saying he couldn't understand how 964 RS prices were rising so rapidly 2 years ago :

"55 times better than a Boxster ? That depends on the criteria you're judging them by. They're 55 times more rare, of that I'm certain. And that, I suspect, counts for a lot.

I'd say they're also 55 times more engaging, tactile and "special" to drive than any Boxster.

0-60 ? Quite frankly if that's your benchmark for what makes a car great (or not great) you most likely won't get the RS.

Overly stiff ride ? Grow a pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find them an absolute blast for A & B road hooning.

Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, course it can be done, but it's the little things that make them. Take the aluminium bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to help you) prop it up using the dainty aluminium strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount).

Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*t it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.

Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.

Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.

Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.

Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......

Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.

Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.

Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......

From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.

At 6,800 rpm in third the gamee's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.

A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel. Initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, so you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.

Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.

It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats.

On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.

And when you've had your driving hit, you won't need to race home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.

Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out.When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :

Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly beacuse it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows and their switchgear.

And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise......

Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........"

 

Thanks for taking the time to write this piece, JC Andruet. It took me back in time of owning air-cooled 911s. Everytime I drove one in the last decade, the experience was like putting on a pair of old jeans. I'll probably own another air-cooled Porsche (street legal but historic race car/track-oriented car) in the future.

Having said this and since you eloquently described the driving experience of a special air-cooled Porsche, I can say that only a select few Porsches have made me smile the way a Ferrari has made me smile/laugh while driving. I think highly enough of my 95 355 Challenge driving experience in that I would only replace it with a 60s Porsche race car prototype i.e. 910, etc. Otherwise, I may add an early S, R, RS or 914-6 GT race car, but not replace it. Just my opinion.

 

Excuse my ignorance but was the 355 as successful as the 911 in motorsport? Ferrari Challenge doesn't count as it's just 355s racing against 355s. I'd be curious to find out how successful it was in pro race series involving multiple manufacturers, including Porsche. 911 has a long and illustrious career. Ferrari's road cars, on the other hand, lost their direct connection to racing when in the early seventies Ferrari decided to focus exclusively on F1. I think some of the magic of Ferrari road cars was lost as a result. My sense is that this only started to change with the 360 and more seriously with the 430, 458 and 488 which had successful factory supported racing efforts. My (possibly wrong) perception is that, while a terrific car, the 355 just doesn't have the racing cred of the 911 so it's not surprising that its racing version is not as sought after as 911's...

 

The road 355 blows away the 911 in every way. My friend has a 2006 911 and he loves it but once I took him for a ride in my 355, he said...."wow my car does not go like this". Ferraris and Porsches are not very comparable but when comparing 911 and 355, I would take the 355 all the time. Even when not moving...the 355 is a work a art..the 911, not so much.

 

The porsche is a purpose built machine

The Ferrari is just damn sexy !!!!

 

I totally agree that a stock 355 is a way more exciting road car than a stock 911. No question whatsoever! When it comes to racing versions, however, looks and sound are secondary to racing success and pedigree. Unfortunately, for 20+ years ferrari completely ignored racing series that are most relevant to road cars. Porsche didn't and established a legacy and following that are now reflected in the pricing of cars that, without that history, are not as exciting as the the corresponding ferraris.

Things have changed now, the 458 and 488 have been very successful and i'd be shocked if in 10-20 years racing versions of 458, 488 (I'd add 430 as well) are not more expensive than the corresponding 911s...

 

Good point on pedigree.