Why is Ferrari not competitive in F1? | Page 8 | FerrariChat

Why is Ferrari not competitive in F1?

Discussion in 'F1' started by Husker, Jul 4, 2020.

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  1. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mercedes boss Toto Wolff has questioned Ferrari openly conceding defeat for both the 2020 and 2021 Formula 1 seasons.

    https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-ferrari-defeat/

    “I saw those comments but it’s hard for me to judge,” Wolff told Sky Sports F1.

    “Is it really possible to dismiss two seasons at once in order to prepare for 2022?

    “We are only allowed to start developing the new car in January next year, which means that even if you write off this season, it will not give you any advantage.

    “But I don’t think it’s my business to comment on the plans of Ferrari.”
     
  2. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
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    It's 2014 all over again.
    Mercedes has a dedicated team already working for 2022 somewhere in Stuttgart headquarters .
    How the FIA could check this ?
    They aren't able to check their own power unit rules (ferrari case)
     
  3. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,481
    Toto has to say those things to avoid people turning off the TV, but he knows he's talking BS.
     
  4. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Toto Wolff is right.

    A team like Ferrari should be trying all the time, not just write off 2 seasons expecting to do better in 2022.

    Mercedes looks for any small window of opportunity to stay ahead, and they keeps focused. That's how they win!

    Ferrari accepts defeat and don't put all its efforts in fighting back: that defeatism.
     
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  5. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mercedes: why is super power (1022 hp) suspicious?

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    Motorsport.com obtained the phonometric surveys carried out in qualifying at Silverstone: the power measurements showed surprising data. The full boost Mercedes power unit was the only one to increase horsepower compared to last year. Honda pays a gap of 28 hp, Renault pays a 37 hp, while Ferrari is last with a gap of 42 hp.

    Milleventidue. This is only a number, but it will remain printed for a long time in the mind of those who experience the Formula 1 paddock.

    Because it took the fourth GP of the season to discover the true potential of the Mercedes power unit, so far smelled, but never fully expressed, either because of fears about reliability, or because of the obvious inferiority of the competition so it was not worth taking risks unnecessary.


    But at Silverstone, the home track for the Brackley team, we experienced a devastating showdown that forces Red Bull Racing to take back all the proclamations of the winter, when Helmut Marko and Max Verstappen were self-nominated candidates for the world championship . And, instead, the Dutchman, in spite of himself, will have understood that this too will be a year of lean cows, because against Mercedes there is no opponent who takes.

    Ola Kallenius, president of the Daimler Group, wanted a test of superiority and for the first time in the management of the "Strat 2" map, the qualifying one, the Brackley engines pushed the turbo overboost: the power data collected with the sound level measurements were simply impressive!

    The power unit of Lewis Hamilton squeezed in Q3 showed 1,022 horses, while that of Valtteri Bottas stopped at 1,020 horses. A nothing that does not justify the gap of three tenths that the ex-champion has inflicted on the good Finnish, but which explains the impressive difference with all the others who, at least in the dry lap, just don't exist.


    If Mercedes wanted to give a signal, it sent it clear and strong: we are talking about twenty more horses than those seen earlier this year. No wonder: the W11 had finished the GP dominated in Austria with 11 kilos of petrol in the tank, a sign that there would be "beer" to spend. And so it was in Silverstone.

    Only the heat could have mitigated the overflowing superiority of the black arrows, fearing the trouble of lubricating Brixworth's engine, but Andy Cowell's latest masterpiece also stopped smoking ...

    There is talk of a "miraculous" petrol homologated before Spielberg and of a different hybrid strategy: the two combined things give a surprising "mix". All the other engines have lost power compared to the last one, not Mercedes which, in fact, has made an important step forward which also benefits the customer teams (Racing Point and Williams).

    The FIA in telemetry has not seen anything unusual, even if now it is up to Mercedes to feel the "breeze" of those who claim that it is impossible to get over a thousand horses without acting in the gray areas of the regulation in spite of the Technical Directives issued by Nicholas Tombazis. But there are those who argue that false signals can be sent to the flow meter to prevent it from reading the correct data, firing more fuel than allowed into the combustion chamber.

    Ferrari has opened a road and there are those who know how to drive it without incurring evident infractions. It is clear that the gauntlet launched by Mercedes is also to the International Federation, but it particularly affects Mattia Binotto who is grappling with a "deflated" engine after the secret agreement with the FIA in which the wings to 065/2.

    The Cavallino unit pays 42 horses from the Mercedes unit, while the Honda is chasing the Stella with a gap of just 28 horses. Renault is no longer the Cinderella of the Manufacturers: it is 37 horsepower with the 6 cylinder that has not changed much since 2019.

    The black shirt was worn by Enrico Gualtieri, chief engineer of the Scuderia: without the "devilries" that made the Reds impregnable on the straight, the Maranello engine proved inadequate for F1 2020. During the lockdown period there was no time to introduce new solutions on the engine that has been approved, but by 2021 the music should change.

    One fact is certain: 42 horses can be worth at most four tenths of a second on the lap, but not the second and passes seen in qualifying at Silverstone, a sign that the troubles of the SF1000 arise from the power unit, but involve the whole car ...

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-tecnica-mercedes-perche-la-super-potenza-1022-cv-e-sospetta/4848120/&prev=search&pto=aue
     
  6. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    In the Wright Book "about Ferrari F1 cars in the midst of Schumacher dominance" he stated that the then Ferrari 3.0 V10 would
    a) run just fine on 102 octane pump gasoline from random filling station
    b) be down some 50 HP compared to the liquid Shell devised and Ferrari were putting in the tank
    c) this liquid happens to ping in the research (test) engine as if it were 102 octane
    d) but contained somewhat more than 6% more energy.

    If anyone really wanted to reign the liquid chemistry, they would write the rule: "All fuel used during a F1 weekend will be obtained from a random gasoline station within 50 miles of the F1 track filled into a tanker truck and that fuel distributed to each F1 team on demand for exclusive use during that race weekend.
     
  7. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    To stop/prevent any cheating, some series run with the organisers providing fuel to all participants.
     
  8. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Quite an interesting idea!! Be fun to see that applied.
     
  9. John_K_348

    John_K_348 F1 Rookie

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    Maybe MB is mixing oil into the fuel rather than injecting any other way as has been attempted the past couple years? MB was doing oil slots originally, and some of the MB engines this year have been belching smoke at odd times. Ferrari was playing with the fuel flow and others may have too. What is the constant across all these solutions? Trying to cram more calories into the combustion chamber? I think SF also was busted for the MGU hack too for too much motor power or something? Maybe MB has gotten away with lax fuel checks? Are they using Shell?... No it's Petronas right? This year is a mess and the damn lack of testing and moaning about budgets is killing the sport. Oh for the days of garagistas annoying the pros at the track. :( May SF can rig up a vacuum siphon fuel drip outside of the fuel flow sensor ;) They could do it with a grounded injector that drips whenever the car is energized. Ask me how I know :D
     
  10. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    It really does not mater who mixes the {Toluene, Xylene, Benzene, and ...} and calls it gasoline.
    Based on the rules it simply has to "Ping" in the research engine at the same compression ratio as 102 octane pump gas.
    To a large extent the calorific content of fuel is related to the density of the fuel.

    This leaves to wonder if there are oil additives that help the fuel "ping" at the proper compression ?!?!?
     
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  11. ferrariformulauno

    ferrariformulauno Formula 3
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    My speculation you have to burn more HydroCarbons to make more power.

    outside the Electronics hacking for MGU or sensory tricking , seems like a controlled oil leak via the intercooler from the compressor wheel front bearing -or- oil reaching the combustion chamber via piston oil squirting .

    cooling the fuel?
    I don’t know how they do it, but they did change the oil consumption rule mid last year IIRC.

    At the end of the day you have to burn more fuel or become more efficient in your combustion process, which the Mahle JET injection does help tremendously.

    Have less heat loss to the block from the combustion chamber, all aids efficiently.

    since mercedes claims 50% is converted into power/torque there is still work to be done ;)
     
  12. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151088/ferrari-not-fast-enough-to-be-thirdbest-f1-team

    Ferrari does not believe it now has the third quickest car in Formula 1, despite recent updates delivering performance progress.

    At Silverstone last weekend, Charles Leclerc emerged as the closest challenger to Mercedes and Red Bull, as he qualified fourth and then took a podium after the late-race tyre dramas suffered by others.

    But while the SF1000's low-downforce configuration for Silverstone appeared stronger than closest rivals McLaren and Racing Point, the Maranello outfit still thinks that the fight at the front of the chasing pack will fluctuate over the course of the campaign.

    Asked by Autosport about if Ferrari felt it had turned its car into the third best in F1, Binotto said: "Certainly we are behind Mercedes and Red Bull. I think we are very close to the others.

    "Here [at Silverstone] we brought a low downforce package which was worth a couple of tenths in optimising our package. But I think it's pretty close.

    "There will be races where we are closer and others where we eventually stay ahead. So it is our task, our duty, to develop the car."
     
  13. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    The high HP number (1020) and the fuel remaining number (11 Kg) together indicate a better thermal efficiency {less fuel = more power}.

    This contradicts the 11 Kg of fuel left after Austria.

    Not only is the engine better, but the chassis and aero are better.
     
  14. 635CSI

    635CSI F1 Rookie

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    Wasn’t there promise of a “new car’ type upgrade to the SF1000 for Spain ?
    Or did I dream that ?
     
  15. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes.....but Ferrari "rushed" it to Hungary.

    It didn't help.

    The only upgrade to Spain is Seb getting a new chassis.

    The major upgrade needs to come from the engine.....Ferrari is lacking anywhere from 50hp to 80hp. (Engine freeze till 2021).
     
  16. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Rumors are Ferrari are looking at picking up Andy Cowell (ex-Mercedes F1 engine builder).

    Some funds need to be diverted in order to entice Cowell to work for the Scuderia.

    Question is will he??
     
  17. chipbiii

    chipbiii F1 Veteran
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    Enzo Ferrari is turning over in his grave.
     
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  18. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    I believe he said that he is not interested at present, he wants to take some time off. It would take a blank check to get him onboard.
     
  19. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

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    he isn't the messiah
    Problem is a lot bigger than one man i fear.
     
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  20. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Veteran
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    As always, there is only one problem...the rules. Get rid of them and let the teams build their best and then let them race. And the only way to change F1 is for fans to desert it and not come back until the game is changed.
     
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  21. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Montezemolo interview with RTL (German)

    Was the F1 "marriage" between Vettel and Ferrari in the end just a misunderstanding?

    Montezemolo: "No, absolutely not. Sebastian never caused any trouble, always worked in a team. He took wins that others would not have taken, in a car that was not always competitive."

    Montezemolo: "I didn't like the timing and I didn't like they way they have done the separation with Seb. There are always changes in life. But it's all about the way you do it!"



    Montezemolo about Ferrari's struggles: "We paid a very high price in 2014. We underestimated the complexity of the new power unit project. In comparison to Germany, there was also no hybrid culture here in Italy..."

    Montezemolo: "Unfortunately the problems came after 2014. The people who ran Ferrari then had neither experience in Formula One nor competence for Formula One, and they thought that you could win quickly in Formula One just like that..."


    Montezemolo says one big mistake was to let go off James Allison... Montezemolo: "I mention him, but I could also mention others. And then mistakes were made by transferring very good engineers from road car production to F1. Completely different skills are required there"


    Montezemolo: "Enzo always told me that if there is the best driver, I should get him. The same goes for the engineers. We have to hire the best people to improve the performance. And these engineers must help the young talents among them to grow."
     
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  22. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Here lies the problem.
     
  23. Sig. Roma

    Sig. Roma Formula 3
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    Actually, CRF has been working on electrification for years. Almost 20 years ago, I drove a Fiat 600 at CRF with a fuel cell powertrain. They have plenty of knowledge, but as Sig. Montezemolo says, Italians prefer the sound of motors to the buzz of electricity.
     
  24. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Never agreed more
     

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