Why don't European and Japanese car buyers cross the line? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Why don't European and Japanese car buyers cross the line?

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by Adrift, Apr 24, 2007.

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  1. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    22,352
    Indian Wells, California
    Full Name:
    Jon
    I probably should have said it better. 'Practicality' and 'reliability' to me are separate things. I was thinking more in terms of carrying cargo, safely transporting young children, handling snowy roads as well as dry roads, etc. The Honda team obviously cut itself some slack on the NSX, whereas on the Legend and Accord I'm sure there were golf bag and suitcase tests, fat people comfort tests and such.

    I would say no Asian cars thus far have the sound, style, smell (well, maybe...) or recognition of the better European cars. And to respond to the OP, that's why a lot of us have a hard time crossing the line. It's kind of like who you date versus who you marry; there's often a different standard in effect.
     
  2. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    Funny you say that as I know my Mercedes is absolute trash when it comes to suspension design and steering dynamics when compared to my old NSX. I would venture to say a S2000 is better as well. When Honda (rarely) does RWD, the car shines as a "driver's" car.
     
  3. 05011994

    05011994 Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2004
    1,859
    Golden, Colorado
    The 959 was very fast, but not raw like the F355, if did everything very well for a car of its age, but we still managed to spin it on the track (lifted right after entry into a high speed corner - rookie mistake) and I can testify that it spins just like a 911. One of my best friends is a Porsche fanatic and they let me tag along when they take their toys out (906, 908, 959, turbo S). It is an awesome machine, but I would take an F40 over it every day of the week.
     
  4. dave_fonz_164

    dave_fonz_164 Formula 3

    Mar 11, 2004
    1,658
    Montreal, Canada
    Full Name:
    Davide Giuseppe F.
    There's just something missing with Japanese cars in general, its hard to put your finger on it, but its just not there.
     
  5. t walgamuth

    t walgamuth Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2005
    850
    you compare a mercedes to nsx and s2000 and say the mercedes is trash?

    it is not trash, it is just designed for a completely different purpose.

    they handle very well for a soft luxury car which is designed to haul five people.

    tom w
     
  6. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    First of all, I said my Mercedes, which can barely hold 2 people if they have any "build" on them.

    Yes it was designed more in the "GT" mind set, but the steering is worse (in terms of feedback/communication/etc) then my Range Rover let alone my old NSX.

    Second, I said it is indeed trash in terms of the handling and suspension design, as stated in my above post. Now it does have amazing grip, it just lacks the tactile subtlety of a BMW or Ferrari (or NSX). In other areas it excels very well, however, your post specifically mentioned steering and suspension:
    In aside, I can't think of many Japanese large 5 passenger luxury RWD sedans other then Lexus (whose steering is far worse then even Mercedes). Never drove an Infinity Q, so I can't comment.
     
  7. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    14,244
    I'm a die hard BMW fan here if you can't tell by my username, but I love my 350Z and Nissans in general. :) Someday I'll have a 240Z. Hopefully an R34 GTR to tag along, too. :)
     
  8. t walgamuth

    t walgamuth Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2005
    850
    and my mercedes has much more tactile steering and handling than my dodge 3/4 ton truck. and comparing them is about as appropriate as comparing any mercedes to an nsx, imho.

    just cars designed for completely different uses.

    what mercedes do you have? and does it have stock wheels and tire sizes? and is the suspension in good repair?

    tom w
     
  9. kompressor

    kompressor Formula Junior

    Nov 28, 2006
    365
    Maryland
    Full Name:
    Jonathan
    I track a mercedes c230 kompressor, and I can tell you the car understeers something fierce, it can be overcome fairly easliy by doing some power on oversteer to fix the problem but its a bit hard on tires, and it takes some serious skill to drive it fast.

    the car in stock form has very poor feedback, ive upgraded my brakes, and gone to lightweight 17 inch wheels 15.5 pounds each, and 235/40/17 fronts, and 255/40/17 rear tires, and the road noise and slightly more harsh ride was a great improvement on seat of the pants feed back,

    next were going to try to dial in some sort of steering upgrade so the car dosent feel so numb, I am getting pretty good at lapping with it and puting the car where i want it and getting good speed thru the turns but it still feels like im driving with fake hands, the only way to turn the car is to lock your hands in possition with the right angle on the front wheels, then throttle steer thru the turn and open the steering really fast after the apex. the mercedes can perform it just dosent "feel" good. cars like the nsx, ferrari, bmw they give you alot more feedback and even slow cars with good driver feedback can be much more fun than a fast numb beast.

    I can hussle the mercedes around the track but I am constanly fighting the car, and it feels like im trying to turn a ship. the bmw's in our stable while actually being slower cars feel much better feedback is exelennt and the cars are a joy to drive in comparison to the mercedes. but as I mentioned the mercedes is faster than both bmw's. and the nsx I had the pleasure of going on an extended drive with put both the bmw and mercedes to shame, as it is faster in general and driver feedback is zenlike.

    in the end its all in what you want do you want a "fast" car, or a "fun" car ? or one that does both or maybe a "good looking car" I say get a ferrari and get the best of all 3 :). i think european vs japaneese really depends on the car most manufactuers have a few cars they have produced that are worth owning in my book.

    If money was no object i can tell you I would go out and buy a ferrari f430, an aston martin v8 vantage, an acura nsx, a merci, and a porsche or two, heck id maybe even throw in a gt-40 or a viper just to round out the collection. that pretty much covers most of the world in terms of car companies. and those are just for all out performance we wont even talk about gt cars like the 599 and vanqish
     
  10. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    It was to demonstrate a point. It is embarrassing when a 2 door GT has worse steering feel then a behemoth of a SUV. If that comparison upsets you, then I can confidently say a BMW 8 series blows it out of the water when it comes to suspension design and steering feel. (whereas a SL will definately out grip the 8 by a bit)
    2004 SL600
    10,000 miles; stock everything with the 18inch radial wheels; good OEM rubber; drives better then SL55 AMGs I have driven, which isn't saying very much.

    When I need to replace my tires I am going to try changing the rubber to something else.

    Now realize that this doesn't mean the SL is in a collective sense is a bad car/trash/etc. I LOVE the car and it excels VERY well in other areas, I am just not blinded by the Trista when it comes to admitting its short comings.
     
  11. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
    7,765
    Nova Scotia Canada
    Full Name:
    Neil
    Most people are bias to their own cars and bash the others. They believe their own half truths or just can't get one due to the bad rep they've been spewing about said make.

    It's silly really. I like most car makes other than the North American makes, save a few due to superior quality.
     
  12. luke9583

    luke9583 Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    1,322
    Detroit Michigan
    Full Name:
    Luke Wells


    The 959 was built under the same premises as the Bugatti Veyron. It had 2 tire pressure sensors in each corner that cost around $900 each. It was never meant to be raw. Actually, none of the Porsche turbo road cars were ever meant to be 'raw' like the f355.
     
  13. t walgamuth

    t walgamuth Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2005
    850
    i am not upset.

    i just didn't understand your point of view. your point of view is much more clear now. i don't think we differ in our opinions much, really.

    i do stand by my original post #15. it was a simple statement about what i have personally experienced, nothing more.

    tom w
     
  14. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    If you discover something that helps, please tell me!

    I would love to drop down to 17s, but then the brakes won't clear.
     
  15. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    In a general sense, I do indeed agree with your original.

    As any Toyota/Lexus product by in large makes me cringe like no other.
     
  16. Lemke

    Lemke F1 Rookie

    Oct 27, 2004
    4,644
    Vancouver, WA
    Full Name:
    Daniel
    My first car was a old crappy Buick Century. My current car, a Subaru SVX. Not a whole lot in common there. Generally though I lean towards Euro cars.
     
  17. cavallino33

    cavallino33 Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2005
    559
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    I think alot people would pick European cars over any other given the funds. I'd love to have a nice Z4 coupe or a Cayman or a 599 but I'm a young guy and needed to spend under 30K so I got the 350Z for 26K. If I'd gotten a European car for that price my choices would have been: VW . Oh goody a Golf or Passat, how exciting.
     
  18. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    Not really, for under 30k you could have gotten both a late 90s 7 series and a higher mileage e24 M6. Or maybe a E36 M3 and have enough left over for a high mileage 99 E46 AND years of maintaince for both.

    Low 30s might even squeeze you into a high mileage 993.

    Really depends what you like.
     
  19. ^@#&

    ^@#& F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Feb 27, 2005
    12,091
    he could have bought a low mileage E36 M3. He could have bought a high mileage E46 M3.
     
  20. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    Or a early 2000s Audi S4 :D
     
  21. cavallino33

    cavallino33 Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2005
    559
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    Yeah I should have said new car. I wasn't looking to buy used. Though you do have a point there are some good options on the used market.
     
  22. ^@#&

    ^@#& F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Feb 27, 2005
    12,091
    or 3 porsche 944
     
  23. cavallino33

    cavallino33 Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2005
    559
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    haha ok ok ok I get it theres lots of good used option. I meant new cars I'm not a complete idiot. Ok well maybe I am but anyway.
     
  24. ^@#&

    ^@#& F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Feb 27, 2005
    12,091
    yes, yes you are
     
  25. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,196
    MO
    Noah, be nice.
     

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