Why do wheel spinners tighten clockwise on the left? | FerrariChat

Why do wheel spinners tighten clockwise on the left?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by abstamaria, Jan 26, 2015.

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  1. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    On Ferraris with knock-off wheels, the spinners on the right side of the car tighten counterclockwise. On the left side of a car, they tighten clockwise. The same is true for Ferraris with a single, center nut on each wheel. This is intended to prevent the spinners or center nuts from loosening.

    For the same reason, the pedals on a bicycle are threaded differently on each side. However, on a bicycle, the pedal on the right side tightens clockwise and on the left counterclockwise. The spinners on a Lotus Elan tighten the same way as a bicycle (i.e., right-handed threads on the right side, and left-handed threads on the left).

    Could someone explain why in layman’s terms please.

    Many thanks, and regards,

    Andy
     
  2. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    On bicycles the pedal rotates counter clockwise to the clockwise direction of the pedal lever on the right and vice versa. No clue on the lotus.
     
  3. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    Thanks, Robert.

    On the right side of a bicycle, as the crank rotates clockwise (as it would with the bike going forward), the pedal spins counterclockwise on its axis. Since the pedal has right-handed thread on that side, that would seem to loosen the pedal, yet the pedal axle tightens.

    I've been doing some reading on this, and am having some difficulty with the physics involved.
     
  4. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    #4 abstamaria, Jan 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ferrari's Borrani wire wheels use the Rudge-Whitworth centre-lock system, as do Triumph, MG, and many other cars. These use left-handed spinners on the right side of the car, and right-handed on the left.

    On the wheel he developed for the Lotus Elan, Colin Chapman (who was quite a genius) decided that the reverse should be correct for his spinners, because of their different taper. He demonstrated his theory, using a tape roll and a smaller cap rotating inside it. The epicyclic motion dictated that his spinners should be right-handed on the right side, and left-handed on the left.

    The reason for the difference is that the R-W spinner has a female taper (the part that presses against the wheel), while the Elan has a male taper. Here is photo to illustrate what I mean. The R-W spinner is on the left.

    I am trying to understand why that would make a difference, but obviously it does.

    If someone would explain, i would be grateful.
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  5. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    #5 abstamaria, Jan 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    It's always been a bit of a mystery to me as well. To add to the mix, Chrysler had left-handed lug nuts on one side (can't remember which right now) for many years. What an irritation.

    I think the "engineering" behind this is mostly due to overthinking the problem. If the knockoff is on tight and the splines are in good shape, there really isn't any apparent force attempting to turn it either way by simply rotating the wheel.

    The example of the bicycle pedal is somewhat different. The shaft that the pedal revolves around is directly threaded into the crank arm. There is a rotational force applied to it when pedaling that needs to be counteracted by having threads cut such that they tighten rather than loosen on both sides. This was a concept that I discovered and appreciated in my youth. :)
     
  7. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    Opposite of rotation as you are looking face-on at the wheel.

    If you are looking at the passenger side of a car while it's going forward, the wheels on that side are turning clockwise ----
    If you are looking at the driver side of a car while it's going forward, the wheels on that side are turning counter-clockwise.

    In both cases, the nut needs to tighten in the opposite direction.
     
  8. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

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    I had a racer friend that put a solid splined axle in his race car and it was backwards. When I started helping him he told me keeping the rear wheels tight is something we had to stay on top of. Having worked on a number of center lock race cars I realized quickly that his was backwards. Off was not to the front. I removed everything and installed it properly and we never had a loose wheel again. I am not an engineer, but I know it won't stay tight the other way.
     
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  9. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Except for Lotus (probably some others) that seem to work just fine the other way around. I doubt it REALLY makes any difference which way they turn as long as they start out tight. The best way of course is to have a cotter pin like an F40.
     
  10. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    "Forward off, Back on" was how I was taught, true of early 70s race cars, true of same era Rolls, Dodges etc.. No idea why. But, like in the above, it works, if you reverse them it doesn't.
     
  11. Enzojr

    Enzojr F1 World Champ

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    I still feel pain watching the 288 GTO on YouTube of a car going down the highway, and watching the left side spinner coming off and flying thru the air. Car did not crash but he sure got it off to the left shoulder, and you could watch the wheel/tire speeding down the freeway ... Think it was in Japan, don't have a link to it.
     
  12. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    #12 finnerty, Jan 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
    You are correct that if the nut is properly torqued down, it does not / should not matter which hand the thread is. (And, yes, for a road car, why the hell not put in a cotter key for good measure !)

    The idea behind the direction is this ---- that IF the nut is loose / comes loose, its rotational inertia will help to prevent it from unscrewing further and coming completely off if it is threaded in the forward direction. This is really kind of a belt & suspenders idea, because once that thing has come fairly loose, odds are nothing is going to have a 100% chance of keeping it from unscrewing further anyway regardless of thread direction --- because in addition to the forward rotational inertia, you typically have braking inertia in the opposite direction, lateral inertias from cornering, random inertias from wheel bouncing from the suspension, etc. all acting on the nut. Not to mention the now already loose wheel constantly pushing outboard on it.

    This does not matter significantly much with lug nuts / lug bolts because their mass moment inertia is so low and their thread diameter is so small, but the center nuts have a significant amount of inertia (especially the knock-off ones with large "ears") and a large thread diameter.
     
  13. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    Lotus ?! pffft --- they're British ---- they do everything ass-backwards ! :)
     
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  14. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    I think the British invented the other method as well. Whateva ;)
     
  15. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    #15 abstamaria, Jan 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
    Indeed. Borrani became the Italian licensee of Rudge-Whitworth in 1922. Its original name is Rudge-Whitworth Milano. Rudge-Whitworth was an English company. The KO systems on Ferrari and Lotus are both English. Very clever the English.

    For those who doubt the logic of the systems, reverse the hubs on your car, knock on your spinners really tight, drive, and see what happens.

    (But, seriously, don't. You risk damaging you car or worse.)

    Andy
     
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  16. DK308

    DK308 F1 Rookie

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    But looking at racing and race car building through history and now-a-days, ass-backwards seem to work:D
     
  17. Tally Ho

    Tally Ho Formula Junior

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    Chrysler vehicles had left had thread studs on the left side up to 1972. Not sure, other than conformity, why they finally changed. I learned the hard way when I stripped out the studs and lugs on my step father's 72 Dodge. I switched my studs and lugs on my formerly owned 69 Charger and 70 Challenger to RH thread.
     
  18. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    I was being facetious --- I also own a Lotus :)
     
  19. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    Which model, David?

    Andy
     
  20. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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  21. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    The 1950s Jaguar D-Type wheel spinners/knock offs have the same male taper as the Elan.
    So do the F40 and modern Porsche and racing car centre lock nuts.
    They are all threaded the same as the Borrani & Dunlop (MG, TR, Morgan, Austin Healey etc) female taper spinners, ie tighten clockwise on the left hand side, anticlockwise on the right.
    As far as I know the Lotus Elan are the only ones made the other way round.
     
  22. 308mon

    308mon Karting

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    drawkcab-ssa gnihtyreve od hsitirb eht taht eurt toN
     
  23. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    #23 abstamaria, Jan 27, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Will, I don’t know as much as I should about the Jaguar D-Type (but do know I want one badly).

    It seems to me though that the knock off has a female, rather than a male, taper.

    Look at the Dunlop wheel here, which has a conical taper to receive the female spinner. The spinner itself looks like the RW spinner shown in an earlier thread. It should therefore be the same as Borrani, MG, etc., in tightening protocol.

    Andy
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  24. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

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    im not sure if this has been answered but there is a sound engineer reason right why the older centerlock wheels had left and right hand threads.

    it counteracts the inertia from wanting to spin off the nut if it becomes loose. my old alfa gtv have conventional 4x108 lug nuts. they also have opposing threads. in the 70's this was deemed unnecessary, what are the odds of all 4 lug bolts falling off? To simplified parts inventory and eliminate that young mechanic from mushrooming your lug nuts with a cranked up impact driver at the local tire garage. Oem have long restored to common thread bolts on all wheels.
     
  25. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    #25 abstamaria, Jan 27, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
    Thanks, Hyenahf.

    I'm not an engineer, but have tried out of curiosity to read and understand as much as I could on the subject. The answers are apparently not those that occur to one intuitively, as factors such as inertia are not critical to the process. For instance, the shift to right-handed-threads for lug nuts all around is said to be due to the industry-wide adoption of conical tapers on the lug nuts.

    I read, too, that the objective regarding handed knock-offs or spinners is not so much to tighten them as the wheel turns, but to keep them from loosening.

    The engineering explanation to the question why spinners tighten differently on each side is MECHANICAL PRECESSION. It is a difficult concept to grasp, and I have been struggling to understand it for some time. I think I am beginning to grasp the concept, but did want someone more technical and clever than me to explain and perhaps confirm or correct my understanding.

    It is good that Elan wheel knock-offs tighten differently from Borrani and other Rudge-Whitworth wheels, and also from the Jaguar D-Type Dunlops, because the engineering theory (mechanical precession) should apply to and explain both. For my feeble mind, it's like Stephen Hawking's quest to find the Universal Theory of Everything (the physics of cosmology and quantum mechanics don't mesh yet.)

    Here is a good explanation of mechanical precession (the moving illustration is very good)-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_(mechanical)

    Best,

    Andy
     

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