why do both ferrrari and porsche have a black stallion on their shields? who was firs

Here is another: Iron Horse Bikes
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There have been several threads on the origin of the Ferrari prancing horse.... something to do with it being painted on the tail of a plane IIRC the Porsche shield is coat of arms thingy from the city of Stuttgart... it has also been hashed over several times, I don't have the time to look up the threads right now though.

And then there is the Ferrari Chat race trailer stallion.....

 

Quick Synopsis of the other threads.

The Porsche symbol comes from Stuttgart's crest. Stuttgart has a horse on its crest because it was founded as a horse breeding farm in 950. The antlers on the Porsche crest come from the symbol of the German region Wurttemberg-Baden.

Now Ferrari's crest is said to come from the symbol painted on the plane of WWI flying ace Francesco Baracca who died in WWI. His widow is said to have asked Enzo to use Baracca’s Horse as the symbol of Ferrari. And I think someone once mentioned that Francesco may have been using a horse that he saw on a flying squadron out of Stuttgart. However the Ferrari horse and the Porsche horse are different designs.

 

From what I've read the horse for both marqes came from the same orgin, which was the symbol for a city in Germany. Porsche took it directly from that city's symbol and Ferrari got it from a WW1 plane that the pilot had gotten from that same city's symbol.

 

i'm not completely sure but i think (i repeat) I THINK it was porsche in the 1930's somwhere?

 

"Now Ferrari's crest is said to come from the symbol painted on the plane of WWI flying ace Francesco Baracca who died in WWI. His widow is said to have asked Enzo to use Baracca’s Horse as the symbol of Ferrari. And I think someone once mentioned that Francesco may have been using a horse that he saw on a flying squadron out of Stuttgart. However the Ferrari horse and the Porsche horse are different designs."

Hi EOS,
I could be wrong but I think it was Baracca's mother not widow,who asked Enzo to use the prancing horse.

 

Here's the city logo for Stuttgart in the lower left of the brochure:

 

Hi, Ignacio.

The following contents come from a book that I have called, Ferrari: The Sports/Racing and Road Cars, page 14:

" A certain amount of confusion surrounds the advent of Ferrari's prancing horse emblem. One story concerns the Baracca family of Modena. According to this account, Enzo Ferrari had won a race on the del Savio circuit in 1923, and in honor of his feat was given a piece of fabric from the fuselage of the Baracca son's Spad S13, in which he was shot down in WWI. The fabric showed a black prancing horse. It has been suggested this emblem was part of the Baracca family crest, but there is no evidence to support the idea. However, Francesco Baracca commanded Sqadriglia 91a, which used the prancing horse (Cavallino Rampante) as its insignia. Enzo apparently liked the design and adopted it as his own.

Since WWII, it has also been carried on the tails of F86E Sabre and Fiat-built F104G Starfighter jets assigned to Aerobrigatta 4a of the Italian Air Force.

Another story told by the late Battista Pininfarina, is more believable. The account says that Ferrari's brother served with and died in the same squadron as Baracca and that, because of this, the Countess Baracca suggested to Enzo that he should use the prancing horse as a memorial.

The original horse and the one used today by Aerobrigatta 4a is a fiery-looking steed standing on both hind legs with a drooping tail. Over the years, Enzo Ferrari must have given some thought to the implications of this, because the logo on all his cars from 1933 on, shows the horse standing on one hind leg with an uplifted or "rampant" tail."

Ignacio, I am more inclined to believe the story about the Countess Baracca recommending to Enzo that he use the prancing horse as a memorial.

I don't know whether or not Ferrari was the first to use a horse logo.

The Ferrari horse is different than the Porsche Horse. The Porsche horse stands on two hind legs.

/s/ Alfonso

 

The Ferrari horse and the Porsche horse are the same one, they might look a little different but both of them were taken by from the Baracca horse. I don't know the story behind it all but I saw it written in a book, to bad I didn't give it much importance and really just glanced over the page.
I think it was in a Porsche book so I will search it around my library.

 

That is the current logo SrfCity. Not the old crest that was used by Porsche. And also, Porsche was not just using that logo... he combined it with a different field. The Coat of Arms of stuttgart is the black horse .... on a yellow field. hmmm

 

The Ferrari horse did come from the pilot Baracca. Enzo raced a spectacular race, and the father of Baracca approached Enzo saying we want you to use this crest as the symbol of Ferrari, b/c he drove bravely, etc. the same way his son fought (who was a legend of the skies). Almost 100% positive that's how it happened.

 

ahem, picture of the Stuttgart coat of arms and the Cavallino Rampante
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Now tell me this. How do some people get a Ferrari and a Mustang mixed up?! The symbols are two completely different things, I guess when they see a horse they think Mustang.

 

Here are some excerpts from the book "SPAD XII/XIII Aces of World War I":

"Although most 91 Squadriglia SPADs carried the griffon emblem thereafter, several of the 'old hands' retained their personal markings, including.....Barraca's rampant stallion, based on the emblem of his old cavalry unit, 11 Regimento Piemonte Reale."

"Barraca's famed prancing horse became the insignia for the 4 Stormo (wing) during World War 2....."

"The ace's cavallino rampante lives on still as the emblem of Enzo Ferrari's racing team....."

So apparently Barraca's horse was a personal emblem originally, derived from his prior service in the cavalry.

 

There is a good, albeit retouched, photo of Mag. Barraca and his SPAD in the thread http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26006.

The book I quoted has a copy of the original black & white photo and the depiction of the emblem in the retouched photo is still accurate.

 

I guess all that is left is a pic of Baracca's horse...

note that the tail of the horse is turned down, and as I once read on another thread, supposedly the tail was turned up to make it look more aggresive, but like I said, that's what I read here, so not sure on if that's the actual story on that.
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And Barraca was not Modenese:

"Born in Lugo di Romagna in the province of Ravenna......."

 

Here's a drawing of one of Barraca's earlier mounts, a Nieuport 17:

 

So basically... Ferrari took the "black horse" and said, "ok, we'll raise one of the hoofs, reverse the tail, add some defining lines, and we'll all say its Barraca's horse even though it looks nothing like his."

Yeah... umm... if you are going to use someone's Horse in tribute to them, you use THEIR horse, you don't modify it.

 

Ignacio, that is amazing, almost like you "chanelled" that post for me. I was looking at the two crests in my garage last night and had never realized how similar they really were. Then I wondered whose came first and even mentioned that to my girl. Thanks for getting the answers before I even asked!! John

 

Ferrari, in the 1920s I believe.

Porsche didn't exist as a car manufacturer till 1948.

Either way, Ferrari used a stallion as its logo before Porsche cars came into existence.

That aside however, the mere dates don't even answer that question. Porsche uses the stallion because it is the symbol of Stuttgart, hell Stuttgart the name is even on the Porsche logo. And the Stuttgart symbol goes back somewhere closer to 1000 years than 80 years.

Ferrari uses it... well I don't think we can know that since to me the fact that the Bacarra horse is so different from the Ferrari horse makes the claim that it honors Bacarra sound like a publicity sound byte almost.

 

Vivere Ferrari....whooohooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

To bad Ferrari didn't copy the reliability and performance of Porsche along with its symbol!