News

Who Knows which California Spyder was owned by Alain Delon ??

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Impuls2000, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2007
    5,200
    Metro Detroit
    Full Name:
    Steve
    keeping some part of the story in secrecy heightens the world wide attraction that this is getting IMO.
     
  2. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,418
    FRANCE
    The general framework of the car's story is now known to us french enthusiasts, and other enthusisasts reading french, since a few days with some certainty; see post by "dinosaure" (unfortunately in French) on this link.

    Un Trésor Caché - Page 5 - Discussions générales Ferrari - Ferrarista - Ferrari Owners Only

    Therefore, keeping the proof of its identity hidden does not serve any purpose at all, except for detracting from Artcurial reputation; in the whole story, they look rather unprofessional...and selling a lot of "poudre de perlimpimpin" (or sand's powder if you prefer).

    Rgds
     
  3. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2007
    5,200
    Metro Detroit
    Full Name:
    Steve
    I see your point. I do believe it will be revealed, yet the anticipation grows while waiting. That is the point I wanted to get across.

    Regards.
     
  4. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,247
    IMO they look very professional, especially so if you compare to their UK competitors. The most important thing in auction business is to defend the sale item and keep the seller happy. When you fail to do that, you start losing sales and a little later business opportunities.
     
  5. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2007
    5,200
    Metro Detroit
    Full Name:
    Steve
    +1

    Well said.
     
  6. Enzo Anselmo Ferrari

    Enzo Anselmo Ferrari Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    497
    France

    Actually he was found wrapped in a carpet, I'm a scrapyard if I remember well. But apparently Delon had nothing to do with it (it was acstory of blackmail, with pictures of President Pompidou and his wife in a... Special club where you can share your wife and husband let's say! ;)

    Today Delon always wear a Prancing Horse pins on his jacket when on TV!
     
  7. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    616
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    If this car had just come out of a barn belonging to someone who was never on record as owning it, then I suspect they would have posted pictures of the plate and stampings immediately, because there would have been significant question marks about its authenticity.

    However, it is now a matter of official records (discovered within the last six years) that the individual whose estate this car has been acquired from did indeed own this car.

    Given it is infinitely more likely that this car was still in his possession, rather than that he'd constructed the world's most accurate replica, I suspect Artcurial assumed there would be no doubts about the car they'd found.

    Hence, no rush to reveal these photos, which is their prerogative.
     
  8. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,418
    FRANCE
    Speaking with a very small experience, the last time I enquired about Ferraris they were selling, admittely a meagre 328 and the 308, their answers were not precise and without any knowledge of the cars and model they were selling, but even frankly evasive and sometimes questionable.
    I use to trust people who disclose evidence; these guys were speaking on the french radio two or three days ago and said that the car "has been formaly identified by the best experts"...without saying who those experts were. I'm too old for such kid's methods.
    I short, I do not trust these guys and would not bid in any of their auctions. But I didn't intended to do it for that one...

    Rgds
     
  9. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    I am very confused! I have 2935 GT as a steel-bodied '61 comp 250 GT SWB that was sold in the '70s from France to the US, and then owned by Paul Reisman of New Jersey in 2001. Therefore the Spyder California in the pictures cannot be 2935 GT.

    Can someone please enlighten me as to the real serial number of this newly discovered car?!?
     
  10. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,418
    FRANCE
    Well, the whole story of Jess Pouret's mistake is in the link I have posted on the previous page in post # 77, but it is in french...
    2935GT is indeed that California spider.

    Rgds
     
  11. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Then what was sold from France to the states in the '70s? What was owned by Reisman in 2001?!?
     
  12. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,418
    FRANCE
    I don't know...but it seems proven that this California, 2935GT, has been road-registered in France continuously since 1961, and Artcurial say they have all the proof of this. And on the french road-registrations, type and serial numbers of the car are mentioned, with the name and adress of the successive owners.

    Rgds
     
  13. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    I am very taken aback. I appreciate the enlightenment, thank you; but I must await the chassis number photos before altering the information I've hitherto recorded.
     
  14. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,418
    FRANCE
    This is exactly what I have been hoping for since the car appeared...

    Note that most french "enthusiasts" were also very skeptical at first, until the gentleman I have quoted by posting the link said: "no, this is indeed 2935GT, without a doubt; the story is clear and easy to follow until 1966, when the car was sold to a canadian gentleman living in Paris".

    Artcurial said two days ago on the radio that the first thing they did was photographing the plates, and asked the advice and judgment of "the best specialist".
    I still find it regrettable that they did not post the pics of the plates, if they have indeed taken pics (and I'm sure they have) and furthermore given the name, or names, of the "best specialist(s)" who has/have identified the car.

    But that's just me...

    Rgds
     
  15. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    I'm also curious - very curious - about the pictures, the specialist, and what of my (mis)information if this is indeed 2935 GT. The anxious, impatient waiting begins...
     
  16. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    I'm looking for an alternate translation program for the forum from France you named:

    Un Trésor Caché - Page 5 - Discussions générales Ferrari - Ferrarista - Ferrari Owners Only

    but just looking at the references to SN I am beginning to thing that
    not one author, Jess P., made a mis-identification of the swb California spyder SN but maybe Nowak and one other all made a mistake in SN for swb California spyders,
    which caused this Ferrari to get what we say in America "lost between the cracks."

    Which only goes to show the limitation of books--an author prints a book saying thus and so, and then, what if, five or 10 years later, he finds out he was wrong about such-and-such a car on page so-and-so, how the hell does he reach everyone who bought the book to correct that error?

    That's the beauty of the internet, you can be as revisionist as you want, updating an article. as new information comes up In fact, on the websites of major papers they frequently have a note "Updated as of Dec. 9th, 2014" etc. so you know something's been added or a mistake corrected in a story they previously posted (Rolling Stone is going through this right now, having to eat the words their writer wrote about an alleged rape on a college campus).

    I think the lesson to be learned here is that we, as hobbyists, over-depend on authors to do all our homework for usso we don't have to do our own detective work "out in the field" so to speak. And one author copies from another (Zounds, say it is not so, Joe...) so mistakes get perpetuated. Not that I ever made a mistake in print...in fact I apologize for some of the early comments I wrote in this thread a few days ago because I was reacting to the news in "real time" starting 14 hours after announcement that the car was found and going on sale. But that's the fun of a website like this, we can all participate in the discovery of and/or unmasking of a fraud (though I think this car is real)
     
  17. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,418
    FRANCE
    I shall translate the post in french on the french forum tonight and post the english translation tomorrow morning, so the english-speaking tifosi will be able to read it for breakfast and make up their mind, and react
    Rgds
     
  18. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    616
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    This is related to what I said earlier about the media treating secondary sources as primary sources. Authors writing books about Ferrari - however well-informed, wonderful or trustworty they are - are secondary sources.

    There is nothing wrong with placing your trust in these eminent historians though, so long as you realise that they may well discover new information in the course of their profession or hobby. :)
     
  19. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    #94 bitzman, Dec 9, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
    To Torquespeak" In support of your argument I have written about a Cobra in the hands of a Detroit museum a 427 7 litre chassis but though I have said it is CSX3001, which would make it the first Cobra big block coil spring car, Ford put a rubber body on it that obscured where you read the chassis number so unless the Museum would let me cut into the car no one can find the number. Eventually someone will buy it and rebody it as the first Cobra big block but as a historian myself I had to take an educated guess because it has been written that Ford got the first Cobra big block for experimental purposes. So I may have to revise my guess at its identify and wait for someone to cut into that one off roadster body.
     
  20. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,418
    FRANCE
    Translation from the french post discussed yesterday. I do not know who is the author of this post, that I did my best to translate accurately.

    Posted December 6th, 2014 – 02:00

    Good morning everyone,
    Yes, #2935 she is indeed, and she is also a Short Wheel Base California chassis, right from birth.
    When he wrote his book “250 Competition” in 1973, Jess Pourret spent several weeks studying the commercial archives from the factory, which were stored Viale Trento e Trieste. Then, as there were several questions still pending that needed clarification, he asked the factory for additional information about some chassis numbers. I have in my possession a copy of the letter signed by Franco Gozzi dated December 11th, 1973, stating that #2935 would be a Berlinetta Lusso first delivered to Franco-Britannic Automobiles on September 27th, 1961. So, on the behalf of this information, Jess stated in his book that 2935 was a Berlinetta, but in fact #2935 was a California, as Ferrari-Classiche admitted many years later.
    As chassis and power plant are identical between these two models, it would not be impossible that a car originally planned as a Berlinetta was in fact built as a California spider, hence the confusion. Other examples are known.
    But as these errors die hard, especially when printed and then copied again and again, this gave rise to many later theories and much confusion in identifications, notably for the cars that were exposed in Paris for the 1961 Salon (a Berlinetta, and then a California)
    There are still a few number of living people who well remember this blue California with exhaust snaps, first with Gérard Blain, then with Alain Delon, then for sale in the “Maison de la Radio” surrounds in Paris, and then owned by Paul Bouvot (Note that it was the first California that Paul Bouvot owned as, to complicate things further, he then owned #2175 in partnership with Jess Pouret, before ceding his shares to Jess Pouret) . The trouble was that after Paul Bouvot in 1966, it was known indeed that the car was sold to a Canadian gentleman living in Paris, but the track stopped here…
    Apparently, the checking of the registration leaves no doubt about the identity of the car, with a continuous and clear history.
    It is, by far, the nicest discovery in a long time!
    So, it doesn’t matter much if she has lived her life, if she doesn’t have the correct indicator lenses, nor the bumper stops (but she had already lost these at the time of Paul Bouvot’s ownership, as the pictures I have do prove): this is no replica, no conversion, simply a forgotten car happily discovered again.
    Yours truly.
     
  21. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,104
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    A brief point, Artcurial may consider that we mere mortals that normally make up the population of these threads are not likely to be qualified purchasers and as such they wouldn't be terribly worried about our views on this car at the moment. Besides which they will provide the full suite of pictures and a great description in due course (generally a month out from auction) and everyone will be able to relax. I still dont think there is anything particularly scandalous about any of it........ Cant wait to see some good studio shots of all of these cars, the Talbot-Lago's look fascinating as well as #2935.
     
  22. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    It's the little details that could make a few million dollars difference so begging your indulgence, I would like to ask more details that occurred to me while reading the forums.

    Question One:
    So in essence, all of these authors failed to list it in their books?

    Jess Pourret (did he list in correctly in a later edition than his 1977 book?)
    Stan Nowak
    Matthias Urban (what was his books' title?)
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Question 2

    I find the letter from Ferrari confusing. I didn't even know the 250GT Lusso was in production in 1961. I think in this particular case Gozzi meant "lusso" as an adjective for "luxury as if to say it was going to be a luxury coupe. It's also possible that , when Ferrari SN are first put on a frame, and that number recorded in a factory build sheet, that doesn't necessarily mean their first intention for the car is built for what if they want to build a coupe on spec for a dealer to put in his showroom but an order comes in for a spyder, a cash money order, well, you paint the roses red (see Alice in Wonderland)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Question 3
    I thought someone mentioned it had a been a Paris auto show show car. If so, how come some websites say the Ferrari booth open V12 show car for the 1961 Paris Show was a 250GT series II cabriolet in light metallic blue? Not that Pininfarina couldn't have had it over at their booth...
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks for any opinions...
     
  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,104
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Some 250 GT Short Wheelbase were known as Lusso's because they were in Luxury spec. Maybe as many as 60% of the production run. The later 250 GT Lusso was actually named that whereas the earlier 250 GT Short Wheelbase could be ordered in whatever spec. you wanted but was always called 250 GT......... Not always easy to understand Ferraris nomenculture so later many people have created appropriate names for them.
     
  24. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    Letter was probably in Italian sent to someone in france, now we get English translation. And not many models we know like "Lusso" and "Daytona" had model names on them in chrome like American cars do.
     
  25. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jun 25, 2006
    14,150
    Deep South
    Full Name:
    PDG
    If Talacrest were to get this California would they rebody it into a P3???



    PDG
     
    Collesano likes this.

Share This Page