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Who Knows which California Spyder was owned by Alain Delon ??

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Impuls2000, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
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    Yes, this is a different 250 California that was already with new owners by the time Delon had 2935GT, and was photographed on various sets in 1963/64 with it.
     
  2. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
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    Confusion on numbering? we learn every day something new.

    In the book "California Spyder" by Stanley Nowak there is no #2935.
    In the book "250GT Comp" by Jess Pourret, 2935 is listed as an SWB berlinetta sold new in France, which I thought I saw at Monterey in 1987.
    In the book "Ferrari serial numbers" by Hilary A. Raab 2935 is listed as an SWB berlinetta.

    Are all these books wrong?
     
  3. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    If the car were there for a number of years, and the building belonged to a business,there must be former employees who took pictures of it, so iif those pictures can be found, it can be seen what plates it had earlier; and what the interior and engine looked like, Another avenue would be Ferrari club of France reports on seeing the car and maybe somebody recorded the serial number when the bonnet was open...
    And if it was taken to a dealer,and it could be determined who was the dealer, there would be service records where the SB is the first thing written down.

    I have to now knock down my previously postulated argument that a genuine car of such value would only be found in the company of cars of equal value because when the long lost Cobra Daytona coupe was found in Anaheim, it was stored with four cars of hardly any value. If I hadn't known one of the sic Daytona coupes was unaccounted for, I wouldn't have taken a report of a Daytona being seen seriously if it was stored with throwaway junkers.It was bought for $3 million and sold the next day for $4 million which is a nice profit for owning a car only 24 hours...
     
  4. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

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    Really?! None of the other cars has "distinguished pedigree"? Come-freaking-on! If Bugatti Type-57's, Talbot Lago's, coachbuilt one-offs and cars previously owned by kings isn't pedigree, I'd hardly count a Cal Spyder once owned by an actor almost nobody today has heard of as an unusual addition to the other exotica squirreled away.

    Also, nobody back then walked around with cameras like we do today -- you aren't likely to find a lot of photos of it out and about or records of it being serviced if it was locked up in '72. Nor will there be stories by employees on a disused farm without anybody working on it. Sometimes people just hold onto stuff in remote places and their children don't broadcast it or even know what's there. There's nothing real conspiratorial about that...

    Finally, that's not Brigitte Bardot. The first picture is Jane Fonda. The second photo is Shirley Maclaine.
     
  5. vincent

    vincent Karting

    Jan 11, 2004
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    #55 vincent, Dec 6, 2014
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  6. vincent

    vincent Karting

    Jan 11, 2004
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    #56 vincent, Dec 6, 2014
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  7. vincent

    vincent Karting

    Jan 11, 2004
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    #57 vincent, Dec 6, 2014
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  8. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    It is an amazing find and it is not impossible that the car has sat unmoved and undiscovered since 1961 or whatever is claimed. It is equally not impossible that the historians that have written about the serial number have simply written what the historian before it has deduced which usually is a very expedient way of divulging history but can equally be a speedy method of spreading a supposition that has turned out to be incorrect. I am certain that Artcurial will have done there homework and wont offer a car that is a fraud, if it turns out to be a fake they will withdraw the lot ala Gooding Pebble Beach's Porsche 917. Experts such as Marcel Massini would be able to look at the car and tell if it is old or not, the vehicle's data plate can be faked but the actual frame and sundry parts cannot be simply aged in keeping with its long period of storage. Another sundry related note is that Tom Hartley offered a RHD California Spider that everyone missed back in 2013 so there are finds out there still. This one has been documented in its as found condition as well where most fakes are only documented once restored......

    All in all an amazing find that every vintage F-car enthusiast should be very excited about.
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    Absolutely. Great post. I was excited as a Ferrari fan to see this. Remarkable find.



    Now speaking from a Maserati-fan perspective, where is the Maserati 5000gt by Ghia!!!!
     
  10. Matthias Urban

    Matthias Urban F1 Veteran

    Mar 5, 2005
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    Raab's 2001 update of the "Red Book" lists it as SWB California
     
  11. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
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    I found the story 14 hours after it hit the wire,and was merely posting on FC as I enearthed each tidbit pf new info in real time. Thus I said the picture in the field showed no significant cars with it, but a few minutes later I found the story with pictures of other significant cars. One bit of wrong info I got from the net and will withdraw from the record is Delon's aon being involved with a murder--that turns out to be an internet hoax only in the hoax he was the victim. Another son did die by accident, though, simply climbing a fence. And Alain's bodyguard was murdered. In sum, Delon's complicated life makes this car more controversial than if it had been owned by an anonymous accountant.
     
  12. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    I don't have the Classic Driver article but I wanted to theorize how the car came to light. A few years ago Delon sold a modern era Testarossa
    at Retromobile in an auction. He expected between 40 000 and 80 000 but got 171,500 euros.

    2000 bidders were present at the sale.
    My theory is that some of those bidders started to think "To hell with this new Ferrari, where is the one he was pictured in with Fonda?" and that started them looking for the old Ferrari. Or maybe the auction company selling the modern car simply asked something to the effect of "Well, we did all right on this one, do you happen to remember who you sold that old California to?"

    Also since the old car hoarder had sold off 50 cars previously after his regular business was losing money, maybe someone who knew of that auction went back to see what else was left in the barn.

    Sometimes it takes the first opening of a hoarder's door before you know what's in there. In Detroit there was a guy who had 1000 collector cars which he hid before the war by stacking them very tightly in an enclosure with a corrugated steel wall around them so you could not get in and count the cars (scrap drive people were hounding him). After the war he peeled off enough of the wall to extract one car. It was a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost.
     
  13. robinou30

    robinou30 Karting

    Jun 23, 2008
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    Just in french, sorry !

    The begining of the story: explanations by Mathieu Lamoure, when he discovered this treasure,
    He explained that he found the original keys under the carpet of the passenger side, with the original papers of the car. He also checked the sn...

    The discover is dated from september, 30th 2014.

    Un "trésor automobile" mis au jour dans l'ouest de la France | France info
     
  14. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
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    Thanks, I will update mine
     
  15. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

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    #65 bitzman, Dec 7, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
    With google translation I translated the story you referred to, sounds like the family contacted the auction House, but I wonder if it was the son or a grandson? And why did they wait so long? The auction firm told that woman reporter that they will put a 10 million Euro reserve on the Ferrari but methinks that is too high for an unrestored steel bodied car that needs everything. Now we will see if "the Delon effect" is like the McQueen Effect...
    Ironically they value all the rest of the cars at 16 million Euro, making it an "unbalanced" auction but it looks like carelessly letting the shed walls fall off,exposing the other cars to more of the elements year by year,the family depreciated these assets.

    Still like to know what Delon sold it for or if he will go to the auction to pump up the sale much as Shelby would appear when a big-ticket Cobra was being sold even if he didn't own it anymore. Warning--at 75, Delondoesn't look anything like he did when he was varooming around in that Spyder...but neither does Bardot...
     
  16. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
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    I had a Google but did not find any more about this story - has anything further come out about the withdrawal or is there a discussion somewhere ?
     
  17. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
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    On the internet the latest word I find is a Dec. 6th announcement by
    the auction company that the Ferrari will be scheduled. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Incidentally when first shown the car the auction official found the papers
    with it, but I still don't know why they don't mention the chassis number in their announcement.
     
  18. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    They did not mention VINs of any of the cars they found.
     
  19. Abi2612

    Abi2612 Formula Junior
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    Andreas Birner
    #2935GT
     
  20. dmj

    dmj Formula Junior

    Feb 11, 2012
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    So Arcturial wants us to believe that they more or less accidentally found the collection on September 30th and no one knew about it before.

    ...and guys from Talacrest tweeted this Friday that they were trying to buy the unrestored California from France for about a year.

    Somehow I think that family decided to sell and contacted diverse people to check what they could get. And Arcturial offered to promote it and put the reserve much higher than what Talacrest was ready to offer. Besides it, probably Talacrest wasn't ready for all the cars like Arcturial is.

    But the cars are probably in even worse condition than they seem, judging by the fact that Arcturial didn't even bother to put up for sale the low value cars that we can see among the others (Ford Taunus, Renault Dauphine, Peugeot 204). If they consider them worthless it speaks for the others too.
     
  21. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    #71 Timmmmmmmmmmy, Dec 7, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
    They did say in the article I read on Sportscardigest that lots would begin at 500 EURO's so maybe they will have some "bangers". I did note they recommended that the King Farouk Talbot Lago should be preserved as is. I take this to mean they feel that straightening the chassis of the wreck will be only the beginning of the pain..........

    I dont think there is anything scandalous about the discovery or how it came to be. IMO, it simply doesnt matter who contacted who. Artcurial may have known of the discovery but like everyone they may have been hamstrung by either the limits on the 70s bankrutpcy claims or the tax obligations there in. The family arent going to sell their 10 million EURO car just to have the money claimed by the state for unpaid tax........ Otherwise its all pretty basic.

    As for the Gooding Porsche 917. Unfortunately for the vendor Gooding is the BEST at providing provenance for their auction lots and as such they baulked at the claims which they deemed inflated with this lot. I dont think anybody questions that this is a bonafide 917 BUT some of the claims to specific McQueen history were I have been informed the main point of contention. Ala Christies pulling the Auto Union some years ago it was important for them to pull what would have been their star lot, its likely something they were fairly touchy about since it was the car the media would have been covering in depth and asking every question that they needed to......... So they pulled it.
     
  22. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
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    You said " I don't think there is anything scandalous about the discovery or how it came to be. IMO, it simply doesn't matter who contacted who. Artcurial may have known of the discovery but like everyone they may have been hamstrung by either the limits on the 70s bankruptcy claims or the tax obligations there in. The family aren't going to sell their 10 million EURO car just to have the money claimed by the state for unpaid tax........ Otherwise its all pretty basic."

    As a one time barn finder, now out of the field except as a chronicler, I am , and I suspect others, still interested in HOW the deal came about. As we all know there are other successful auction companies, like RM, Gooding, Bonham, etc. but they either didn't get offered the car/collection or weren't willing to set the reserve so high (after all it wasn't long ago that $10 million dollars was for a restored 250GT California spyder). So if anyone hears the background story of how they swung the deal, we would-be barn finders would like to hear it. One possibility is that they introduced the family to an accountant who was willing to make a presentation on how they could have the least tax liability after disposing of the cars and still come out with a nice piece of change. Maybe other auction companies gave them the impression they could sell the cars but it would be up to them to fight the State on taxes.

    . It could boil down to something as simple as-Artcurial was willing to drive out to the location and look at the cars, while other auction companies--with cars coming in all the time-- couldn't be bothered with driving several hours out to the sticks where there is no good food.

    Or let's hope it wasn't blind luck but the result of due diligence. I suspect that Artcurial has a guy (or a lady!) in charge of combing old records of old sales (and that sale of the fifty cars 44 years ago was a pretty big clue ) to see if, by chance,there were any more cars left in the same barn. I know, if my business was failing, and I had a lot of assets to sell, I'd sell off the ones I didn't want first and keep the precious few that were worth the most close by me, which is apparently exactly what happened. The 2CVs probably got sold first. Someone could have found the car simply by checking old mass mixed-make sales. But there's no glamor in doing this kind of legwork. Remember the old saying; "You got to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet a prince..." Oh, sorry about that frog thing, but you know what I mean.

    And by the way I went to the auction site, and thought the video was a great idea. Do other auction companies do this? And where is that damn picture of the chassis plate anyway?
     
  23. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
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    I have now seen photos of the interior, the stamping, and the paperwork found with the car. I expect these will be posted here in due course.
     
  24. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Bitzman, all fair enough and probably related to a lot that gets auctioned around the world, estate auctions are common everywhere and they are named for their reason..... What will be interesting to see is how many other great unknown collections wash up in the internet era where seemingly everything is known. I personally believe there are still many collections of highly desirable exotica floating around Europe not to mention the bits and pieces in the new world. And like this car its all waiting for someone to die and then it will be passed on to a new home. A large portion will likely be known per se but will be entirely new to the market...............
     
  25. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    Lucky you! I still can't understand why these were not posted with the first pics of the car; what did they have to loose?

    Rgds
     

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