Which World Champion do you think was the least talented? | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Which World Champion do you think was the least talented?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by kizdan, Oct 12, 2007.

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  1. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Hunt,...... he wasn't called "Hunt the Shunt" for nothing, I am told by someone who was racing with him at the time though that he had great parties, same source said Jochen Rindt was probably the best driver he ever saw

    As for those that reckon Alan Jones was the least talented they obviously don't realise that AJ got Williams their first WDC in a car that wasn't that great and there were times when Patrick Head would come up to AJ in qualifying and say we need another second out of it, they'd do nothing mechanical to the car but AJ would go out and push the car even faster than it should have been able to go and get the time Head wanted.

    There is also some video of Jones going AROUND the OUTSIDE of Gilles in '80 I think which shows some talent
     
  2. maxorido

    maxorido Formula 3

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    You're wrong. Ron Dennis offererd Damon a pathetic one year deal, after Damon was practically chasing after him for it, during the latter half of the 1997 season. The contract stipulated that he wouldn't be paid a salary, but only by how many points he scored. He'd be paid a ton less than Mika Hakkinen. Damon didn't take it because he thought it would look bad if he was being paid so much less than Mika, who at the time only won one race compared to Damon's 21. Damon also feard that he'd be warming the seat up for Michael or someone else. Even after all that, he said he regretted it because of the competitiveness of the Mclarens. There was also no offer from Ferrari. His offers for 1998 were from Jordan, Sauber, Arrows and Prost. If you're wondering where I got this from, it's from Damon's own mouth, or hand rather. His book "Through the eyes of Damon Hill", written by him. So there goes your "by all accounts", because this is the only one that mattters.
     
  3. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I can't believe you said that. Alonso blew all his team mates away. Hamilton is not just a rookie, he is a multiple WDC in the making.
     
  4. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    tough one. I'd say Rosberg, Hunt or Damon Hill. And from those three I can say from my own experience that Damon Hill really wasn't all that good.
     
  5. Kami

    Kami Formula Junior

    Nov 28, 2006
    666
    St. Louis
    +1 I quit thinking of Hamilton as a rookie after about the 3rd race of the season. It seems like the kid was just born from the F1 gods.
     
  6. maxorido

    maxorido Formula 3

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    Well it's quite difficult, if you compare him to all the others in the category. I can't believe you said Hakkinen. Michael said that Mika was his greatest rival and had/has a great respect for him. Mika was extremely fast, and hailed by James Hunt as a future WDC when Mika was in F3. When it comes down to it, and based on my reading /research, I would first pick Graham Hill.
     
  7. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
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    +1 John

    The only thing was, it was Gilles that went around Jones on the outside of Tarzan in 1979. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaLRdO10UW8
     
  8. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
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    Rosberg.

    Hakkinen.
     
  9. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    thanks for the vid Tony, always nice to see a clip with GV in it, but I'm sure I've seen a clip where AJ goes around the outside of GV in a LH sweeper and they touch wheels , I'll have to ask the F1 fanatics at todays FCA meet and then look for it in my old videos

    BTW all these drivers are brilliant, even Hill and Hunt, just because they don't light your fire doesn't mean they are not a world away from normal racing car drivers.

    Everyday drivers would spin an F1 car in a straight line on a dry track let alone be competent enough to actually race one
     
  10. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    I was in Italy at the time and saw the race on TV-Mario Poltronieri, the F1 commentator for RAI, went crazy when GV made that pass....seems like yesterday to me....GV ended up on three wheels in that race....Scheckter finished second after falling to last place as Rega and Arnoux collided on lap one...miss those days.....
     
  11. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    I think that may have been Austria 1979; GV made an incredible start and from the third row just outdragged everyone on the inside and led the first few laps but the Williams of AJ just handled the sweepers better and by lap 4 or 5 AJ was by...
     
  12. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I can't believe it's not butter. :)

    Hakkinen got the 2nd title on the silver platter. Similar argument could be made for Rosberg, but he managed against the mighty turbos and was there all the way on the podium.

    Hakkinen was superfast and unstoppable in 98. He got lucky in 99 and was completely burnt out in 00. He had superb talent, so my pick could be wrong. But then that candle burnt from both sides: He was a very late developer (had like 100 GPs before his first victory), quickly rose, shined brightly and just as quickly fell to the ground.

    I was tempted to pick Graham Hill or Jack Brabham instead. I think they weren't that great, but I really don't know enough to make that call.
     
  13. bernardo66

    bernardo66 The Crazy Cat Man
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    Jacques Villeneuve


    ....end of story!!
     
  14. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Anyone but Mika MS has said himself that he is the rival he respected the most during his Formula One career.

    I think Ron had him in the wings wanted him back driving but LH sealed that door shut..
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Mika did a test with the McLaren a couple years ago and his times were embarrassing. I believe the times were so bad, they didn't even publish them (not sure) and just said it was a test without real objective. Yeah right. He even sucked at DTM.

    MS wasn't talking about all the world champions since 1950. He was talking about the drivers of his years. Senna was gone, so who else was there?
     
  16. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Well he ain't the worst if there's such a thing IMO.
    This dont read to bad ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mika_H%C3%A4kkinen
     
  17. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Mika was great, but the question here is who is the weakest link amongst the multiple WDCs.
     
  18. maxorido

    maxorido Formula 3

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    He wasn't burnt out on 00, he won 5 races and took the title battle all the way until the last race. Also, you don't know how Mika and Mclaren would have gone, if Michael hadn't broken his leg. I remind you, Mika was ahead in points when Michael had his shunt. In 2001 however, the Mclaren took a dive in performance, and Mika was only able to win a couple races. Things like this didn't help either...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2odPR07Vb5s

    What you have to ask yourself is, how would he do against Michael in equal equipment? Out of all the drivers of the last decade or two, the only driver I can see capable of beating Michael are Senna and Hakkinen. Prost I'm not sure about, because he and Michael seem quite similar.
     
  19. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ermm I don't really know I find it hard to say as when car's change when driver's would suit one car wouldn't suit another from times gone by...plus I'am a bit pissed coz we beat the french at rugby ..) sorry if I'am not making sense.
     
  20. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    Renault that year managed an amazing 10 poles but only 8 podiums (4 victories) as their reliability sucked-an amazing 11 different drivers from 8 different teams won races-this year we have 4 drivers from 2 teams winning GPs-and there were 16 GPs in 1982 as opposed to 17 this year.
     
  21. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    That clip heart breaking..:(
     
  22. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2004
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    less so than Hungary '97
     
  23. Michael Collins

    Michael Collins Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2004
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    Clearly some of you never saw Mansell, nor realised who he was racing against and with which drivers a team mates.

    Head2Head (not career) just racing against each other. Comparison Mansell / Senna

    (136 Races)
    Nigel Mansell Ayrton Senna
    Wins 30 (22.06%) 34 (25.00%)
    Poles 31 (22.79%) 58 (42.65%)
    Podiums 55 (40.44%) 70 (51.47%)
    Points 445 521
    Retirements 60 (44.12%) 44 (32.35%)
    Fastest Laps 29 (21.32%) 17 (12.50%)

    No of race wins

    1 Michael Schumacher 91
    2 Alain Prost 51
    3 Ayrton Senna 41
    4 Nigel Mansell 31
    5 Jackie Stewart 27
    6 Niki Lauda 25
    7 Jim Clark 25
    8 Juan Manuel Fangio 24
    9 Nelson Piquet 23
    10 Damon Hill 22



    Formula One

    1980-1984:Lotus
    Mansell's skill as a test driver, including setting the fastest time around Silverstone in a Lotus car at the time, impressed Chapman enough to give him a trio of starts in F1 in 1980, driving a development version of the Lotus 81 used by the team, the Lotus 81B. In his Formula One debut at the 1980 Austrian Grand Prix, a fuel leak in the cockpit that developed shortly before the start of the race left him with painful first and second degree burns on his buttocks. Car failures forced him to retire from that race and his second, however an accident at his third event at Imola meant he failed to qualify. Team leader Mario Andretti wrote his car off before the final race of the season and Mansell had to give up his car for Andretti to compete in. Andretti announced he was leaving to move to Alfa-Romeo at the end of the season leaving Lotus with a vacant race seat.

    Despite Mansell being unpopular with one of the teams backers, David Thieme, and much speculation in the press that Jean-Pierre Jarier would fill the vacancy, Chapman announced at the start of the season the seat would be filled by Mansell.

    Mansell's four years as a full-time Lotus driver were a struggle, as the cars were unreliable. Out of 59 race starts with the team, he finished just 24 of them. He managed a best finish of third place which he obtained five times during the four years including in Lotus' fifth race of the 1981 season, and only the seventh of Mansell Formula One career. Team mate Elio de Angelis took a surprise win at the 1982 Austrian Grand Prix, and was frequently faster than his less experienced colleague Mansell.


    Mansell's Lotus 91 from 1982 being exhibited in March 2007.During the 1982 season, Mansell planned to race in the 24 Hours of Le Mans sportscar event in order to earn extra money. At the time Mansell was paid £50,000 a year and was offered £10,000 to take part in Le Mans. Chapman believed that by entering the Le Mans race, Mansell was exposing himself to unnecessary risk and paid him £10,000 to not take part in the race. Chapman extended Mansell's contract to the end of the 1984 season in a deal that made him a millionaire.[6]

    As a result of the gestures such as the above, Mansell became very close to Chapman, and was devastated by his sudden death in 1982. In his autobiography Mansell stated that when Chapman died "the bottom dropped out of my world. Part of me died with him. I had lost a member of my family". Following Chapman's death relationships at Lotus became strained, as replacement team manager Peter Warr did not have a high regard for him as a driver. Warr was not keen on honoring the last year of the contract that Mansell had signed with Chapman. However with encouragement from Lotus' sponsors, John Player Special, it was announced Mansell would be staying with the team.

    In 1984 Nigel finished in the championship top 10 for the first time, and took his first career pole. At the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix Mansell surprised many by overtaking Alain Prost in a wet race for the lead, but soon after retired from the race after getting off line and losing control on the slippery painted lines on the road surface. Mid-way through the season, the team's new managers signed Ayrton Senna for the following year, leaving Mansell with no race seat at Lotus. After receiving offers from Arrows and Williams, and firstly turning down Williams' offer, Mansell eventually signed for them.

    Mansell was remembered by many this year when he collapsed while pushing his car to the finish line after the transmission failed on the last lap of the 1984 United States Grand Prix. The 1984 Grand Prix was the hottest on record, and after 2 hours of driving in 104°F (about 40°C) conditions Mansell fainted whilst pushing his car over the line to salvage a sixth place finish (and thus 1 championship point) in a race he'd started from pole and led half of.[7]

    Mansell's final race with the Lotus team was heavily compromised due to Warr's unwillingness to give Mansell the brake pads he desired for the race. With 18 laps of the race remaining, and with Mansell in second position, the brakes on his car failed. On Mansell's departure, Warr was infamously quoted "He'll never win a Grand Prix as long as I have a hole in my arse".[8]


    1985-1988:Williams

    Mansell at the 1985 German Grand PrixIn 1985 Frank Williams snapped Mansell up to drive alongside Keke Rosberg as part of the Williams team, Mansell later saying "Keke was probably one of the best team-mates I've had in my career". Mansell was given the now famous "Red 5" car, which he drove throughout his career (for Williams and Newman/Haas) and which was brought to the public's attention mainly through commentator Murray Walker and his enthusiastic commentary for the BBC.

    1985 initially appeared to provide more of the same for Mansell, although he was closer to the pace than before, especially as the Honda engines became more competitive by mid-season.

    Mansell achieved second place at the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps, and followed this with his first victory in 72 starts at the European Grand Prix at Brands Hatch in England. He achieved a second straight victory at the South African Grand Prix in Kyalami. These triumphs helped turn Mansell into a Formula One star.

    Going into 1986, the Williams-Honda team had a car capable of winning on a regular basis and Mansell had established himself as a potential World Championship contender. He also had a new team-mate in Nelson Piquet. The Brazilian publicly described Mansell as "an uneducated blockhead" and had also criticised his wife, Roseanne. Unperturbed by Piquet's mind games, Nigel went on to record five Grand Prix wins in 1986 and also played part in the then closest finish in Formula One Grand Prix history, finishing second to Ayrton Senna in the Spanish Grand Prix at Jerez by a mere 0.014 seconds. The 1986 Formula One World Championship went right down-to-the-wire in Adelaide, Australia for the 1986 Australian Grand Prix with Prost, Piquet and Mansell all still in contention for the title. After aiming for a third place finish which would guarantee him the title, Mansell would narrowly miss out on winning it after his left-rear tyre exploded in spectacular fashion on the main straight with only 19 laps of the race to go. Nigel ended the season as runner-up to Alain Prost. His efforts in 1986 led to him being voted the BBC Sports Personality of the Year.

    Six more wins followed in 1987, including an emotional and hugely popular victory at Silverstone, in which he came back from 30 seconds in 30 laps to beat team-mate Piquet, with his car running out of fuel on the slowing down lap. However, at the Italian Grand Prix he missed a gear and let Piquet, who was using an active suspension car, through to win. A heavy qualifying accident at Suzuka in Japan for the penultimate race of the 1987 season severely injured Mansell's back (a spinal concussion), and as a result of Mansell missing the remaining two races, Piquet became champion for the third time, even though he failed to score any points in these two remaining races.

    In 1988, Williams lost the turbo power of Honda to Team McLaren, and had to make do with a naturally-aspirated Judd engine. A dismal season followed, which saw Mansell's Williams team experiment with a terribly unreliable (but extremely innovative) active suspension system. Mansell would complete only two of the fourteen races in which he appeared in the 1988 season, both being podium finishes. Ironically, one of these was a second place at the British Grand Prix at Silverstone where the team had reverted to a passive suspension set-up.

    Mansell developed chickenpox in the summer of 1988 and after a competitive (but ill-advised) drive in the very hot conditions of the 1988 Hungarian Grand Prix the condition would get even worse causing him to miss the next two Grands Prix.


    1989-1990:Ferrari
    In preparation for the 1989 season, Mansell became the last Ferrari driver to be personally selected by the late Enzo Ferrari before his death in August 1988, an honour Nigel described as "one of the greatest in my entire career".[9] In Italy he became known as "il leone" ("the lion") by the tifosi (Ferrari fans) due to his fearless driving style. The season was one of change in the sport, with the banning of turbo engines by the FIA and the introduction of the electronic gearbox by Ferrari.

    Mansell believed that 1989 would be a development year and that he be able to challenge for the championship the following season. In his first appearance with the team he scored a very unlikely win in the Brazilian Grand Prix, his least favourite track and the home race of his bitter rival Piquet. He later joked[citation needed] that he had booked airplane tickets home for halfway through the race as he predicted the car's new electronic gearbox would last only a few laps. Mansell remained the last man to win on his Ferrari debut until Kimi Räikkönen in the 2007 Australian Grand Prix.

    The rest of 1989 was characterised by gearbox and various other problems which included an unnecessary disqualification at the Canadian Grand Prix and a regrettable black-flagged incident at the Portuguese Grand Prix for reversing in the pit-lane, which resulted in a ban for the next race in Spain. However, Mansell finished fourth in the Championship with the help of a memorable second win for Ferrari at the Hungarian Grand Prix, where, after concentrating on the race set-up of his car, he won after a spectacular late-race pass on Ayrton Senna after starting only 12th on the grid.

    A tough 1990 followed with Ferrari, in which he had more reliability problems with the car, causing him to retire from seven races. In this season he was paired with Alain Prost, the reigning World Champion, who took over as the team's lead driver and played on Mansell's inferiority complex. Mansell recalls one incident where at the 1990 British Grand Prix, the car he drove didn't handle the same as in the previous race where had taken pole position. On confronting the mechanics, it transpired that Prost saw Mansell as having a superior car and as a result, they were swapped without telling Mansell.[10] After retiring from the race, he announced he was retiring from the sport altogether at the end of the season. Mansell obtained only a single win, at the 1990 Portuguese Grand Prix and finished 5th in the world championship. His retirement was cancelled when Frank Williams again stepped in. Williams signed Mansell on the 1st October 1990 after Mansell ensured the contract stated that he would be the focus of the team, having experienced being the 'Number Two' driver at Ferrari. Mansell would be paid £4.6 million a season, a deal which made him the highest paid British sportsman at the time.[11]


    1991-1992:Williams

    with Williams FW14B-Renault, Mansell dominated the 1992 season.His second stint with Williams was even better than the first. Back in the familiar 'Red 5', he won five races in 1991, most memorably in the Spanish Grand Prix. In this race he went wheel to wheel with Ayrton Senna, with only centimetres to spare, at over 320 km/h (200mph) down the main straight. Quite a different spectacle was offered following Mansell's victory in the British Grand Prix at Silverstone. Senna's car had come to a halt on the final lap, but, rather than leave his rival stranded out on the circuit, Mansell pulled over on his parade lap and allowed Senna to ride on the Williams side-pod back to the pits. However, the Williams team's decision to develop their new semi-automatic gearbox by racing with it at the start of the season, was at the cost of points in the opening rounds of the championship. Senna was on 40 points by the time Mansell gained his first 6 in Monaco. Despite a good mid season, which included a hat-trick of victories, Senna's consistency (and Mansell's retirements at key races) meant that he finished second in the Championship once again, this time behind Senna.

    1992 would be Mansell's finest season. He started the year with five straight victories (a record equalled by Michael Schumacher in 2004), and eventually won the Drivers' Championship by setting the then record for the most number of wins in one season (9) and highest number of pole positions (14). He only narrowly lost the Monaco Grand Prix to Senna in high temperatures after a late-race puncture, but still finished in second place. Mansell was crowned Formula One Drivers' Champion early in the season at the Hungarian Grand Prix, where he finished second, adding another record to his collection by winning the Drivers' Championship in the least number of Grands Prix since the 16-race season format started.
     
  24. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
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    A story of tenacity.
    Thanks for the post.
     
  25. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
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    +1000 about missing those days, GV was a crazy bastard driving that thing on 3 wheels at racing speeds into the pitlane. It looked like he had oversteer coming into the pits. Gilles should have been the 1979 F1 champion, the difference was that Gilles was a Gentleman and kept his word to Ferrari and Scheckter. Something that these guys today would not understand. A Real Sportsman.
     

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