Where is the 400/412 Market REALLY at?

a very, very beautiful car, in spite of the US side makers...good luck with your auction.
maybe you could tell us a bit about the car, your experience with it, service history, etc.


for what it's worth, i've come to the conclusion that you have to be prepared to be 'into' your 365/400 for $60-70K to have a good one...including some paint and body.
Series 1 and 2 400i's might run you a bit less, but could ultimately be the same.
412's could run you less over time because Ferrari's were already seriously climbing in value when they new...so they were treated better, generally speaking...
and likely don't need paint..but they don't have quite the same 'soul' as the earlier cars, imo

if it turns out to be less for an earlier car than i've qouted above, great, you're lucky...but don't expect to be...
and after 5 years of ownership you most definitely won't be into for less if you'v started out with a $25-30K car.
naturally, there will be a rare exception to this general rule.

 

I paid $24k for mine in 1997, have not repainted or redone the interior, but I would say that I've put close to $20k into it for maintenance and general sorting. I have no intention of "restoring" it, but just want to maintain it as a nice driver. I agree with Brett that if you want a perfect car, be prepared to spend $70-80k.

 

I have a 1980 400i automatic I need to sell. It is high mileage and a little rough on the interior and paint. Great to drive and lots of spunk. $15K. Whitney

 

Nice car...very nice car. Hits my color buttons

 

An early 400GT (much lighter) with revamped Webers, ZF 5 speed. high compression pistons and more aggressive cams is pretty stout. And running straight pipes into the Ansa tips really helps, not to mention the sound at full song. It's embarrassingly faster than my friend's Daytona.

Also you can get great SS headers at a very reasonable price from this UK shop: http://www.pdgough.com/

 

I run straight stainless pipes and tips on my car. You're right; it roars!

 

you couldn't possibly have bought at a better time...well after the 'high' and comfortably ahead of the 'curve'.
the times, they are a chagin', though...it just tick's way too many boxes to be a secret for much longer.
3 of the series sold in the last 25 days here...at much more than the numbers bandied about here, but the value will prove to be beyond doubt...i wish i could have kept one for me...

Randle, give me a call,

brett, 705-435-1990

 

The race prepared Daytonas apparently had different bigger carbs and 'some tuning' which gave them huge difference in power did you do the same ? would be great to hear more detail of exactly the changes you made and power difference. Do these changes have an effect on engine wear?
Regards
Alastair

 

+1! Spill the beans!

 

If you pass, let me know, I'm interested, too.

 

Brett’s post above speaks the gospel. Trust me. I know. As a threshold matter, I think you really have to “want” a 365/400/412 and you must certainly not be speculating and hoping to get a vintage V12 on the cheap. Nothing in this category is cheap, nor should it be. It’s imminently reasonable to believe, and most new purchasers should benchmark a number, between Brett’s $60K-$70K figure to have a descent sorted car at the end of the day—‘cause that’s just what it’s going to take to get it there. This figure can be discounted as mentioned by Brett based upon the series of car and further to the extent that you are willing and able to turn those wrenches yourself and fix that which needs to be fixed.

Given the condition of certain of the cars available for purchase today, I think it’s a fair proposition to start with Brett’s number and then try to back into your purchase price. Do your due diligence, try your best to understand your target car’s needs, find a shop, determine the cost to set it right and negotiate from there. Buying a car for between $25K and $45K is, obviously, doable. Do not think however, that it stops there. This is just the price of entry. While some here may or may not share this viewpoint, to me, a well sorted car (engine, gearbox, exhaust, electrics, paint, interior, glass, etc.) for $60K sounds reasonable—a good deal actually. I would argue that aspiring purchasers should be willing to plunk down $60K for such a sorted car. Unfortunately, I don’t think people are there yet mentally, but, frankly, they should be.

As noted, there are exceptions. If you can now purchase, own, drive and maintain one of these cars to a reasonable high-middle standard and are able to do so for less than Brett’s number, kudos to you. Consider yourself lucky, savvy, whatever; you are ahead of the curve. If you not, and you are within or above the range discussed, then you’re right where you should be. Welcome to the club.

 

Jay,

No compliment intended. Nonetheless, congratulations on your putative purchase(s). I hope it all works out as you wish.

 

lordy, lordy, lordy...look who's surfaced...great to hear from you again G.

 

Hey Brett--I can't just sit back and let you have all the fun...

 

Jay,

I actually read the whole thread--even the passive/aggressive parts. While not unreasonable for you to expect that every post should be directly responsive to the exact questions you pose, while not off topic, my reply was intended to expand upon points raised by others—apologies for the transgression. It seems like you now have the answers to the questions asked, so I will not offer further views (clichéd or not) on the matter and I'll try to part company amicably. All the best.

 

bu the reality is exactly what everyone keeps telling you it is...a moving target...for all the reasons that have been spelled out...
but that's not the finite answer that you want, so you're dismissing it as cliche...so no, i don't think you do get it.
if you wanted to know about 412's then that's what you should have specified...that's a much, much easier target...
nevertheless, now that you've got it all figured out, would you care to make the effort to indulge us... in the same way that we made the effort to indulge you ?

 

oops...you beat me to it G...gone a while but you're right back in the saddle, eh ?

 

Jay, you better not have scared Gregg away...we just got him back for Christ sake !

 

Jay, there's a lot wisdom in your last post. I, hopefully along with others, look foward to learing about (and seeing some pic's of) the new acquisition.

 

It might be tempting to point to the experience with the 250GTE/330 GT 2+2 market price movement over the years and extrapolate that experience to the 400 series cars.

There was a time, oh, 15 years ago or so, when the vintage 2+2s were routinely trading hands in the $50K area. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. Now they are probably all in the $75-$150K area. What happened is that demand finally surpassed the supply, particularly as nearly any car that age will have received at least one full restoration in order to be driveable. Even though doing a restoration is not usually a good investment if one wants to sell immediately, eventually some or all of the price of the restoration begins to show up in sale prices of cars.

With the 400-412 series, they are sort of in between the driving experience of a vintage and a more modern Ferrari, maybe slightly closer to the vintage feel. For the time being however, most people don't think of them as "vintage", just somewhere in limbo between vintage and modern.

With the prices of the far more numerous 456s still coming down, these prices will represent a ceiling on 400 prices until the market starts to really separate how it views the two different models.

I don't know if this will ever happen but it probably will take another 10 years before a 400i/412 is considered "vintage", i.e. when the newest one is 30 years old. Of course by then, the oldest versions will be 47 years old at that time and will be truly vintage.

The other factor will be how quickly the supply of good cars available on the market shrinks as people realize that they could never replace their car for what they can sell it for now. This may (already) put some upward pressure on prices but the tradeoff of that cost versus buying a more modern and powerful 456 may cause some buyers to switch to the newer car if their primary objective is a front engine V12 Ferrari experience.