What would you do? elise vs z06 vs ?

Agree 100% with Boxerman....
If you really want to learn how to drive, start in a momentum car like an NA Elise, Miata or am SRF. I have been racing LotusCupUSA for the past 4 years - started with supercharged Elise, then a 211, and now a spec Elise (for the competition).

Your skill sets will really grow in a momentum car. Too many novices and amateurs jump into a high HP car e.g. - Porsche, Corvettes, Vipers, some Ferraris without learning how to drive. They use HP as a crutch to get them out of a turn with crappy lines. Sure they are fast on the straights (but anyone can push throttle to the floor), but slow in the corners.

Get the Elise and learn how to drive with that car, then move to a high HP car.

 

Only on a long strraight. To an elise in a bend the vette is like a billboard stuck in your windsheild. Anybody can floor a car on a straight.

As Stirling Moss said, the straights are the boring bits between the corners.

Now a really good driver with lots of exerince in a slick shod vette is going to be faster than an elise comming out of corners because the vette just has more drive, going in the elise will brake later and carry more speed. But then a speced GTR is going to be faster than a vette everywhere, for the first few laps till it fades.

Now if you can go fast in an elise then when you go to a car with even more power then you will be really fast.

BTW my friend with a supercharged elise(220whp) and aero with suspension slicks etc turns 58 secs at LRP, thats faster than I have seen hotshots in vettes, 1 sec faster than the 458 was running and slighly slower than a 355 challenge car driven by a pro. Yes i am sure vettes have gone fatser than that, but at this elvel its very much more down to skill than differences between cars.

So yes 500 hp is going to be hard to beat on the straights, but a good driver in a superchaged lotus with aero is going to smoke most evttes on a 2mi track. Now put a 350 hp supercharged motor in an elise which is a 10k proposition and I am not sure how well a vette will stack up.

In any event the fastest car last week was GT3 RS 4.0, about 1-2 secs faster than the hot vettes. Yet on paper the z06 with cold air and header slicks etc should be faster. So drivers make a big big difference. the betetr you learn how to drive the faster you will be. Starting with an overpowered car will limit your progression and eat $$$, its just a fact.

For 35-40 you can end up with a great trackable/stretable elise that will do years of yeaopman service and your consumable will bemanageable. Then if you really want to go faster spend 10 K on the motor and see who can keep up.

Of course a really fast track car is a worked over e36 BMW that arrives on a trailer. Where a GT3 or vette will run 2.15ish at the Glenn an really experinced 70yo was running bellow 2.10 in his e36. Bill Prout who really knows his stuff ran an elise down to 2.10 and his son ran a track only e36 328 down to 2.08. Too much power is not necessarily your friend.

 

Good advice from someone who knows. ^^^^

I would think the driving experience/fun factor is much greater in an Elise than in a 'Vette. I drove nothing and I mean nothing but MR2's for 22yrs and yes in a straight line a higher hp car would pass me (until I built my '92T) and then have to pass me again after I ate them up under braking and handling. With a car such as the Elise there is nothing better than becoming one with the car and with my MR2's I could feel every corner and know what it was doing.

Just rambling.

 

Get a 997 porsche 911

 

Fabulous car. Much different price point and very expensive to operate on track. About the same as a Z06, maybe more as I don't know if it will accept 18" wheels. The late model bling wheel business makes tracking them hard, as tire choices in 19" are slim and 20" almost none. My Z06 track wheels are 18" so I have decent tire choices.

 

Your numbers are simply anecdotal nonsense. Your statement that drivers make a big difference is true. Beginners starting in momentum cars, is a good idea.
That being said, a mostly stock Corvette will outrun mostly a stock Lotus-all day long on any roadourse bigger than a billiard table. Heavily modded Corvette vs heavily modded Lotus=who knows? The Corvette is a durable platform that does very well on the track-and not just on the straights. It is reliable and parts are easy to source. You can leave the Corvette mostly stock or build an ALMS replica-your(and your wallets) choice. Many more options than the Lotus and I'd guess more often than not, the more reliable of the two.
If I was looking for a momentum car, I'd purchase a Miata and be done with it, not the Lotus.
I like being able to pass anywhere on the track-so for me, the choice is the Corvette.

 

If a Miata was chosen just imagine how much money will be saved compared to the Elise or Corvette!!! I would rather track a Miata than an Lotus simply because I know from experience how unpredictable a mid-engine layout can be.

 

I have owned an Lotus elise sport and an Evora S. I have only driven several Miatas. In my view the Miata drives like an ebonomy car. The Lotus is so much ahead of the Miata in feel and handling.

Now The Miata spec cars on the track are a different breed. On the track at Sebring I had trouble in my Elise sport against a Miata spec car. What would happen is at the straight aways the vettes and Ford GTs would get way ahead and in the corners they would all bunch up with the Lotus and Miata spec cars trying to get around the faster cars in the corners

Almost any Vette 2008 or newer in almost any track would win with the cars you mentioned.

I had a 2009 ZR1 vette is one of the fastest most delightful car I have ever owned. My Mosler and Meclaren mybe a little faster not sure. I do agree the vettes has some poor design years but they have come back and deserve a little repect.

Best

Lee

 

I would still choose an Elise over a 'Vette any day of the week.

 

I was just at LRP today. Yes a zo6 vette or zr1 is faster than a lotus down the straights, not so on the corners. On a tight track like LRP whatever speed a vette may gain on the straights is lost on the bends. You cant trail brake a vette as easily as a lotus unless you really really know what you are doing.

Yeah if I wanted to fel macho and had no clue I would drive a vette or a viper. Want to learn how to drive and go really fast get an elise. Then one day when you get a power car like a vtte you will be invincible ont he cporners as well ast the straghts.

BTW a stock vette ie non zo6 is not going to be faster around a track than a lotus, and most evtte drivers never learn how to drive.

Learn how to drive well on a car that is reasonavly affrdable to track.

If it wer eme and its purely a track car get a worked over e36 BMW for 30-40k you will end up with a 2700lb car that no factory vette will get near.

 

Mine's aging fine. It rattles--it has rattled since new. Nothing has broken. Hinges, seals, etc. are as good as they were when new. But I'm at only 5K miles, even though almost 5 years old, since it sees mostly track only driving.

 

Here's my two cents:

Save the money, get a Miata and prep it for track duty... Just about as much fun on a track as an Elise and less stress when you nick it up. Or blow it up.

 

I will say my turbo Miata is as fast as my Elise and has been the most reliable track car I have ever owned. I constantly find myself coming back to it no matter what other cars I have.

 

Do you ever see anyone tracking MR2s?
I've never driven the latest gen ones, and they're rather stylistically challenged (inside and out) but a 16V motor with VVT mounted behind the cockpit should make for a fun driver. You'd need a roll bar just like a Miata, but seems like a could be a viable alternative.
2001 Toyota MR2 Spyder, $9,888 - Cars.com

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What they said.

If you want to mash a gas pedal to the floor while you hold the steering wheel straight, buy the Z06.

But if you want to become a better *driver* (braking later into a turn, carrying momentum through a turn and accelerating sooner out of a corner) buy the Elise/Exige.

I've driven a zillion different cars over the years and not one feels like the steering is connected directly to your brain like it is in an Elise/Exige.

That, coupled with the weight of the car and the suspension setup, make for a cornering experience that has to be felt to be believed.

I drove a friend's Z06 on the track and (while it's VERY fast in the straights) it constantly felt like the back end wanted to make it around the turn before me.

It's a hacksaw versus a scalpel. The hacksaw will cut faster, but it ain't gonna be pretty.

 

Why not a 993 911?

 

I am not a track driver - one day I hope to be! I did grow up going to the track every weekend for vintage races for my dad - we had formula vee, formula Jr, and a well documented Dino 206sp sn#002 amongst other mid cc sized sports cars. I learned a lot - there was always the joke about somebody who could afford a great car and go total it. If you are taking any car to the track think of it getting totaled (like the amount you of money you decide to bring to Vegas is considered throw away) - can you afford to go racing after that? If you have one car, how are you going to get to work on Monday? Track insurance can be expensive! So many factors to think of. It was mentioned earlier to get two cars. Get a fun daily driver and a dedicated track car.

For your first track experiences you should think simple, learn and grow. I just looked on ebay and there is a spec miata for $12,000 in the race car section. It has been sorted. You can build a car, but man is that expensive. You have to buy, try and figure out if it works and possibly find another solution. If you build, you will get what you want. If you buy a car, you might be inheriting somebody else's problems - but just like buying a used Ferrari, you shop carefully, buy the best you can afford, can find a good start so you can work with it...

Enjoy it -figure out if you want to do track days or begin to compete (then things get more expensive!). Eventually if you are doing the right things in life you can graduate up to your next track day car and restart the decision making process you are at now.

Look at the track of any good race driver and you will see they have made a progression in their career. You have to do the same, even if it is only a hobby. Learn to respect the track. Learn the rules. Learn etiquette. Learn to be fast. Then get faster.

I am not a "rich man" like many on here and that is what I would do. Some day I want to vintage race but I will likely start with a bugeye sprite and work my way up to some cool lotus. BTW - I plan on being a "rich man" and working very hard towards it!!!!

I just reread your first post and saw you have a track car Supra - is this a dual purpose car as well? are you just looking for another dedicated track day car? Just trying to understand the situation better - in which case some of my statements above may not fit your situation...

 

I owned or driven these cars and this poster said it perfectly. I would add the X06 is difficult to hold on the road when driven in anger. I have freinds that are good drivers and they have alot of trouble. Strangely the 2009 ZR1 with more hp is much easier to drive in anger.

It is hard to beat a Lotus for handling. as this poster said " it has to be felt to be believed"

Spencer, the poster above me sounds like he has racing experience. Just a wonderful and exciting post. I have never raced but I could feel his experience and passion.

Good luck on what you buy

Lee

 

One thing momentum car drivers don't master is throttle modulation, primarily because they do not have to. A Z06 gives up very little to an Elise under braking or in corners, but demands a sensitive right foot mid corner to exit. OF COURSE a Z06 wants to come around on application of power. THAT'S THE FUN!

Now I do race and track drive to excess, so my perspective is that I enjoy the challenge of a difficult car if the ultimate performance in terms of grip and lap times can be harvested. An easy to drive car can be boring, IMO.

 

Well put...

In SCCA autocross the Elise and the C5 Z06, as well as the C6 Z06 are all in the same class, with the same level of modifications allowed (sticky tires, shocks and sway bar tuning allowed on one end of the car only).

The Elise has proven, in these low speed events to be only marginally faster than either generation of Z06's. But remember these are very low speed courses, with the max speed attained very seldom over 70 mph, and most of the event run entirely in second gear.

On faster autocross courses, where you get out of second gear, and on any road course the Corvette waxes the Elise. If you are driving an Elise, and are capable, I'm sure you will find yourself with a windshield full of Corvette at some time, given the wide range of driving talent in a typical HPDE and the fact that there are a good number of drivers who aren't very talented in Corvettes. But a properly set up and driven Corvette is very close in cornering performance to the Elise and is far faster once the power is applied.

I'll ask all the Elise HPDE drivers out there this simple question. Have you ever waved by a Corvette? I don't think there are any that can say they haven't.

 

You hit the nail on the head: "add lightness"

Here is a humbling point. I started racing LotusCupUSA 4 years ago in a Supercharged Elise - did well and thought I was tough s*it so decided to move to something "faster" and with more HP. Traded it for a 211.
The 211 is a dedicated track beast: 265HP with only 1650 lbs. this car is fast as s*it but there is NO margin for error. As said earlier it is a "scalpel" and you have to be precise. I was turning the tail around more often than I wanted to. After that year, I picked up an NA Elise and moved to the Spec class which I am racing this year.

I am learning way more even now in the NA Elise than in the "high HP" 211. (Of course, personal coaching by Skip Barber coaches always helps )

One thing I am working on is braking. Sure throttle modulation is important, but braking modulation is a challenge in and of itself - when to brake, pressure to the brake pedal, trail braking, length of braking, etc.
Because, you see, if you overbrake an Elise, you lose.

 

If you really want to go to school, try a popular spec car class like SM, SRF, FM, or FE - see what class is well represented in your region and try racing in a class where 1 second blankets the top 10 cars in a 40+ car field.