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430 What happens if you rev to redline when oil is cold

Discussion in '360/430' started by 24000rpm, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    im not sure what is "precision cracked type". Let me explain what's in the red circle.

    There should be a hole in there, just like on the other side ( on the same photo). When assembling, the hole is supposed to be inserted by a sharp obtuse object which is part of the connecting rod. The purpose is to make the connecting rod and the cap to be positioned precisely.

    The "obtuse object" broke off from the connecting rod, so I circled it.

    hope that explains it. Is it called precision cracked type?


     
  2. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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  3. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    CYLINDER LINER DATA:

    Maximum wear limit 0.05 mm
    Minimum concentricity ( IS THIS THE RIGHT WORD? is it called "runout"? ) : 0.03 mm
    DN = 92 mm +/- 0.008
    maximum roundedness( correct wording?) at D3 = 0.015 mm
    maximum roundedness( correct wording?) at D2 = 0.015 mm
    maximum roundedness( correct wording?) at D1 = 0.02 mm
     
    tifosi101 likes this.
  4. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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  5. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

    May 20, 2018
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    thx... no speculation there.
     
  6. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    Crankshaft data

    Axial clearance after installation 0.12-0.24 mm
    Main journal maximum position difference ( I TRANSLATED IT, NOT SURE WHAT IT IS, PLEASE CHIME IN): 0.035 mm
    Main journal and connecting rod surface hardness : 690-850 kg/mm^2 (HV=525, 0.3-0.35mm)
    Maximum parallel difference relative to the main journal ( I TRANSLATED IT, NOT SURE WHAT IT IS, PLEASE CHIME IN): 0.01 mm
    Connecting rod perpendicularity relative to the flywheel flange plane maximum difference
    ( I TRANSLATED IT, NOT SURE WHAT IT IS, PLS CHIME IN): 0.025 mm
    Main journal perpendicularity relative to the flywheel flange plane maximum difference( I TRANSLATED IT, NOT SURE WHAT IT IS, PLS CHIME IN): 0.03mm
    Main journal diameter : 62.982-62.995 h5
    Rod journal diameter: 43.621-43.637 h6
     
    360trev likes this.
  7. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    ROD JOURNAL DATA
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    CONNECTING ROD AND PISTON DATA

    wrist pin circlip wear limit (use tool ALZF 09206): 0.8-1 mm
    axial clearance of connecting rods on the same journal: 0.2-0.339 mm
    piston diameter at D1 in photograph: 91.947-91.963 mm
    piston diameter at D2 in photograph: 91.917-91.933
    piston diameter at D3 in photograph: 91.467-91.483
    wrist pin to rod clearance: 0.015-0.03 mm
    wrist pin to rod clearance wear limit: 0.05 mm
    wrist pin bushing interference with SOMETHING that im not sure: 0.04-0.09 mm
    rod bearing to journal clearance: 0.015-0.048 mm
    rod's small end maximum out-of-roundedness ????? : 0.005 mm
    rod's big end maximum out-of-roundedness ????? : 0.005 mm
    wristpin diameter 19.995- 20.000 mm




     
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  9. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    I translated these from chinese, somebody who's been building engines chime to correct my English?
    It took me 2 hours to translate them......
     
  10. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Jan 16, 2012
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    In my opinion, yes. YMMV

    IF YOU were to decide to not do above, DO NOT leave a pit. Needs to be completely removed with smooth transition, i.e. blend. This would require removing more material, i.e. the blend will be deeper than the current dent/pit/spalling.

    I do not deal with rotating machinery in my day job, but I do deal with surface finish issues, e.g. scratches and corrosion. We completely remove such discrepancies.

    Good luck.
     
  11. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    appreciate the input. The reason for a smooth blend is to prevent future spalling, am I correct?

     
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  12. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

    Feb 5, 2014
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    I've looked at the photos on a desktop PC and now see much better - yes, you're correct: that's a broken dowel (roll pin in this case) to locate the rod cap onto the rod. These are not precision cracked rods but the standard type which have machined mating surfaces and then the bearing surface is machined after.
     
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  13. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2005
    5,797
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    I am no expert but in my opinion a pit on the bearing surface is a big issue. The bearings are supported on an oil film created by oil pressure from the pump. The pit will impact that film thickness and stability and that can cause the surface to not be properly supported. This is why cranks are precision machined.
     
  14. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

    Feb 5, 2014
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    I forgot to mention: thankfully the prices for F136 engine components are relatively low. In line with Mercedes or BMW.
     
  15. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    yep, now our biggest concern is the crankshaft. That's one single big ticket item. A new crankshaft is more than US$6000. Rods are well within a few hundred dollars a piece. Bearings are under $25 a piece.


     
  16. gsholz

    gsholz Karting
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    Jan 21, 2006
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    PDX
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    Gerald
    That "pit" on the crankshaft looks like the hardened surface peeled off. If that is the case, you'll need a new/used crankshaft.
     
    24000rpm likes this.
  17. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
    3,472
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    Doing shake down testing on this in next few weeks. Ready for install Q1 next year.. Part of a reflash.

    That's it
     
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  18. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    it is confirmed that the crankshaft is beyond repair, it is roughly 0.2 mm deep.


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  19. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    2,431
    Uk
    I would be very surprised if it was a roll pin- these are called location dowel and generally a solid ground steel pin- roll pins at 9000 revs wont last long.
     
    KC360 FL likes this.
  20. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
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    It will depend what range of oversize bearings are available, plus 40 thou bearing used to be common on fords etc.
     
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  21. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    2,431
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    The bearing is supported by the crankcase and its main bearing cap, or the piston rod and its cap. The crank pin and crank journals are then supported by the oil film pressure- ie they float in the oil film due to the pressure.
     
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  22. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    2,431
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    0.2 mm is only 8/1000 inch- most engine 1st oversize is plus 10/1000. So might be hope yet.
     
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  23. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    new information.

    the car does NOT knock whatsoever before he had an oil change about 45 days ago. The oil we used 45 days ago is 5w40. The oil could be a knock-off. (it is rampant in china to have sub standard oils with top brand bottles)

    Then the small knocking sound was cured by replacing the knock-off 5w40 with genuine 10w60 about 10 days ago. We are not sure if it would have a small knock if we replaced the oil with genuine 5w40. The cold rev happened about 5 days ago.
     
  24. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,797
    Campbell, CA
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    John Zornes
    So what did you say that I didn't? Unless you are trying to differentiate between the bearing and cap. The two surfaces of the bearing are the bearing and (in this case) the crank. The crank has a pit. How is that not part of the bearing surface? Am I missing something you are trying to say?
     

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