No way is a GTS worth more than £100K over a GT, this is why the Data is misleading. A buyer, seller or speculator would not or should not rely on this as the only source. Hagerty do it for one reason, subliminal advertising. Ignorance is your enemy
Tony I respectfully disagree. The GTS numbers are skewed by the huge premiums paid for "chairs and flares" examples especially in the USA. I don't know whether Hagerty considers results from Bring a Trailer(many believe it represents The Market) or whether they rely solely on verified transactions?
Good points raised and I agree, but there are a lot of transactions that dont reach the market and are private sales. I have had a lot of serious offers for my car over the years and although its an original GT C&F example, they have been way higher than current sale prices by UK Ferrari specialists or Hagerty's valuations. However i would be tempted to part with mine if I could reach the USA prices paid for a C&F example. The USA is a different market altogether. As you know its all about condition of the vehicle you are buying and Hagerty's perception of what that is differs wildy to what you and me consider a "good" car. Best Tony
Perhaps it seems so, but almost 45 years of nearly full time involvement (preoccupation ?) with antique/classic/vintage vehicles has shown me this hobby (& business) has always included countless posers and wannabes, etc, many whom are often easy to identify from their excessive concerns/obsessions/worries about the perceived value(s) of their, let alone other peoples car(s)/vehicle(s). Do other hobbies include huge percentage of individuals constantly concerned/obsessed/worried about the perceived value of it or needed equipment, let alone what others spend on theirs ? Baking ? Dancing ? Gardening ? Golf ? Sailing ? Shooting ? Skydiving ? Etc… Do golfers not use their clubs to maintain their “like new” appearance and potentially better resale value ? Or gardeners not using their pruning scissors for same reason ?
Frankly, I am bored about these purported "valuations". Please allow my ramblings. Thank you for your patience. Hagerty is only a guideline, potentially to arrive as a perceived amount to insure your car. New cars, another issue, as the dreaded depreciation sets in, not collector value. So a Fiat 500, early models are steady in value, whereas the 'new' ones depreciate Bummer. Unless you buy the Lapo Elkann "Speciale Super Fast, S.A. Aerodinamico SWB with 'Snap' exhausts, with syringe disposer. Only one made. Others, never reach 'collector status'. Clearly, favourite sons and daughters of Ferrari, Porsche, et al, do get specials, that us mere mortals will never. Personally, I will not sell a car on BaT, or auction, as I think that the best deal, is a private one, where all is transparent, and both parties reach an agreement that will make all happy, or quasi. I just bought a "unicorn steering wheel', private treaty of course, and both happy with the arrangement. PPI, etc., etc., comes to mind, and a good rev through the gears, none of this granny driving that most BaT attendees show. A spot of the old smoke from the tires, something that we know and love. Besides, BaT is 80% full of bozos (and possibly on the payroll) that have posted over 50K times and only do the peanut gallery, and oftentimes ruin a great auction. Swayed, distorted, and dare I say, a bit 'banana republic' dealings perhaps? Corporate thoroughness, and efficiency at cancelling those pesky comments that spot 'issues' or funny serial numbers. Ask me how I know, and actually most of us do. The 'undesirables', Pariahs with a touch of knowledge. A fellow named "boaboyoz", with almost 60K comments, and no life, comes to mind. This, not to mention the " Jeez, Dino is the best" and ramble on about poor young Alfredino Ferrari. Colombo, Columbo, all the same, as Weber, or Webber, and replica, a rebirth, a commemorative 'fake' of a wannabee. If it is at auctions, pump up the merry audience with plenty of booze, and you will see mind boggling results. I remember that my friend, bought an Alfa GTA (a steal at $80K 10-15 years ago) that blew its engine 5 miles from PB auction. Of course, a high ticket item, is a zillioner's reach so PB, Mecum, Bonham's, etc. are best venues, when somebody else writes the transfer instructions for you. In my line of agri-business, strictly a cut throat one, agreements are always done between parties, never revolving around 'official' futures prices ( my trade, being an exception, of course), as not realistic one bit. 80 times the world's coffee production is traded yearly on paper. Unless you are in the trash side of the business, like making a living selling Mustangs II, or Pintos, Mavericks, etc. , price fluctuations are a no-brainer. Lucky guys, steady as she goes. Of course, do not mean any offence to aficionados of these models. E.G. Coffee futures have gone down in less than a year $1.00 x Lb. Have you perceived a reduction at the supermarket? No? Really? If you buy quality, the price has not changed one iota. It is still $4 and up for a crappy cup of coffee, at your favourite retailer. You can get 40 cups of great coffee from one lb at home... See the relation? I do not. They spend $5 per lb, and sell it for $160. Not too shabby. Only if you buy canned trash, you might see a few pennies down. So why the Dino fluctuations, and their distortions? Let's not talk of Daytona. In 911's, Targas are worth less than Coupes, and in Dinoland more. Please explain, then I will tell you about veracity of inherent values. C & F? They were only an addition, not that pretty, yet a high and desirable option, unicorns?, and what about nerf bars, do they add value? Bras? Gone are the days that you could buy the 'unobtainium' engine compartment light for $27, and if lucky enough to own one, or a few, you can sell that little itty bitty light for 4 figures. Pathetic. Does Dom Perignon lower their prices, ever? Same with collectors cars. They are worth what the 2 of us agree on. Period. If the Liquor Store (ample markup) decides to give you a case discount, another story. 2 cases, wow! When rappers, decided 'Crystal' was the champers of choice, it went sky high, one day it was not anymore and poor 'old Roederer' lost millions. Dino, fortunately or not, have ruined the opportunity for many that wanted one, or made someone with assorted back and rotator cuffs a headache to own, thus sell at distorted prices. That's my take. Yes, I love Dino, and the stories of poor Mr. Ferrari' son. If you tell me my Dino value is related to Hagerty or Bat, you better go somewhere else. And if you think of them as the 'Bible', well... Regards, Alberto PS. Just saw this for sale, on BaT clearly, a class act after all: Mugen Body Kit and Roll Cage for Honda City Turbo II
I may be mistaken, but doesn’t Hegarty use multiple factors and trying to pinpoint values? I believe the biggest factor is insured values of their customers with support of those values from market data. The market data could be sales, auctions, private transactions, etc. Who knows what other factors come in to play. I do agree that “Chairs and Flares” transaction values may or may not skew the market. I also know of multiple non-chairs and flare Dino’s that were top notch cars that sold for over $600 in private transactions well over a year ago, some well over 2 years ago. For whatever reason, there are several F-chat members who have paid high prices for very nice stuff. They said they would post here, and even though they are posting another parts of F-chat, they have chosen not to do so for whatever reason I have respected their privacy. These are very real buyers and known people. I will also say that the absolutely most unique part that almost all of these buyers share, is, they are under the age of 45 and are buying new Ferrari’s, some have several modern Ferrari’s. I agree US values differ than European-based Dino’s. Multiple people have bought in Europe and have had them shipped here. Some have posted publicly about that on the Dino threads. The Dino is the one vintage car they want. I don’t know of anybody in the same category that has any interest in Daytona’s. Just saying….
Alberto, you seemingly took the words straight out of my fingertips, but assembled them far more eloquently than I ever could. And let’s not forget that most, if not all, antique/classic/exotic/vintage vehicle market -, price - & value guides generally establish their assessments & predictions by using published auction results (real/verifiable or not, including alleged, but again, not necessarily verifiable “high bids”, etc and other similarly silly metrics) and/or current or recent “asking prices” from published advertisement listings by used car dealers or individuals (now how idiotic is that ???). Obviously all this ^^ has always seemed necessary for people who either pretend to be car guys, but need someone else to tell them how much to pay for their dream car and showing them how much they can expect to gain when they're done with their dream (while more common and real possibility of loss rarely, if ever, mentioned) OR they pretend to be savvy investors/speculators using all kinds of published charts and crystal balls to boost their egos (i.e "Told you so !") or fill themselves with fears & worries of looming financial hardship or even ruin, not mention shame, proving their entry to "The Market" ill-advised/-timed …
Totally agree with this. Value of any item is only what someone is willing to pay. Blue chip car prices are manipulated by the trade and never represent the true value of these cars. When I was in the car trade I was surprised about the dealings going on unscrupulous at best illegal at worst all to push values up and in occasion to drive them down. Why is a 1957 250TR worth double what an Aston Martin DBR1 is, given by most of the factors used to value such cars it’s not. The 57TR never won Le-mans,as far as I know didn’t win the world sports car championship was made in greater numbers. The Aston that achieved all of this and with on 5 ever being made is almost 3 times as rare is worth $20m and the TR $40m the reason is market perception driven by the trade.
And, now think about it. When you buy a Dino nowadays, you have that niggling thought that " If I paid 600K for one now (highest Dino has ever been on an average) will I ever recoup?" Or all the buyers, as someone mentioned , 45 years old, do not care? They are trued dyed in the wool passionate collectors, that while their 430, 45... 48... et al, are taking a huge depreciation, Dino may keep its value? Who knows...and I don't really care. I never sold a car I bought. Any. Well, if $ is no object, who cares. Yet it makes a huge difference, when the vast majority in Dinoland paid from very low, to high 5 figures, so in this case who cares, right or wrong? Well, if Dino became 'unsaleable' all of a sudden, then they would be worth less than Lapo's car. Since I started insuring cars wight Hagerty, my premium has doubled, and in theory so has the 'intrinsic value' of the cars. Has anyone had a 'total loss' with them, and what were the results? No questions, ifs, or buts? Regards, Alberto
In defense of Hagerty valuations, I have found them to be quite accurate, and well in sync with transactions I have witnessed or am aware of. And to answer the question of how and where they get their information: 70% from peer-to-peer sales, 20% from auctions, 10% from dealer sales. See link below: https://www.hagerty.com/valuation-tools/about-our-conditions The prices may seem high in the EU and UK markets because the Dollar has appreciated against most currencies during the last year: 8.78% vs the Euro, for example. It is currency fluctuations mainly, in addition to some inflation adjustments, it seems to me.
Beg to differ (on the 458 Italia values). I bought my 2013 Italia with 12k miles in 2019 for $174k. Hagerty gives a range of $243-290k (for excellent & concours condition). The 458 Italia has already bounced from their max depreciation levels. But I think 488 values are still on the decline. PS. I still own my Dino (guess I have a thing for mid-engine Ferrari's...and almost Ferrari's).
They will ALL depreciate, unless you have a limited edition version, and you as well as most of us, do not qualify, as not favourite of ANY factory. Only your 507(s) or Cali. will not... Besides when computers start failing in ANY modern, who are you going to call? And why would you buy a modern? This is Dinoland Regards, Alberto
@TTR , more fake news, right? Dino 04268 https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-ferrari-dino-246-gts-3/?utm_source=dm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2023-07-27 Image Unavailable, Please Login
Have to get Dino out of here asap... !!! Still require a new body-man / painter. Regards, Alberto PS. I am very happy for the seller, the buyer, ouch... I am simply amazed at the $ levels Dino has reached, it will not be far for such a huge production car to beat some of the '60s classics, just a sign of the times I guess, or a generational change, with much more cash than we ever had. At these levels, a (proper) 911 RS, starts to look very tempting.
Dear Alberto, I recently took my cousins son to the prom and asked him which of my classic cars he would like to be taken in. Without hesitation he chose the Dino. At the prom his friends (ladies as well) swooned over the Dino which surprised me as there were many other exotic cars there as well, some i would love to own. So the old lady still has the charm and the future is bright for the Dino if the younger generation still find them alluring. I tend to look at her as a Audrey Hepburn or a Sophia Loren, classy birds that outshine the jumped up tarts of today.
I felt the same about my 328 after driving a Boxer. It’s much lighter but lacks the power…. Mini Boxer
Going back to something I said some time back... I know of three specific private US Dino transactions that have taken place in the last weeks. Two are F-chatters, one, I am not sure. All MUCH younger than one would guess. I am just posting to say, the Dino buyer today ISN’T a Boomer, it is Gen-X OR YOUNGER (And not a new Ferrari Buyer). This is going a fun sub-forum in the near future Shawn
