What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ? | Page 5 | FerrariChat

What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

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  1. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Feb 22, 2004
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    Tom Wiggers
    Will see what Ed has to say about his ex original 1022/1032, will speak with him soon.
     
  2. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2004
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    Nick.
  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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  4. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Paul S.
    Interesting little website on the Kidston 512M: www.loluk.co.uk/kidston/kidstonDemo.html

    (Apologies if this is a repost - or if it re-opens a can of worms). :D
     
  5. dwall

    dwall Rookie

    Oct 2, 2004
    20
    nice video, anybody know which 512M is featured on the hillclimb in the video,
     
  6. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

    Aug 27, 2007
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    Stephan Hoekstra
    serial number 1022

    Regards,

    Stephan
     
  7. dwall

    dwall Rookie

    Oct 2, 2004
    20
    Hi, 1022 was never prepared to "M" spec, surely it is either 1024 or 1050?
     
  8. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

    Feb 26, 2006
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  9. Poolshark

    Poolshark Rookie

    May 2, 2006
    23
    Anyone (Marcel) know the original number of 512 engines produced? I know all engines are stamped with their own numbers, but I know some (maybe all) are stamped with a chassis numbers (on the heads near fixing to rear subframe, blocks near the starter fixing)

    More direct question; anyone know what engine number the Mason car 1026 and 1028 (owner?) are using?

    Another one;

    what are the official period S to M updates; I know the body style obviously, the nosesection with replaced oilcoolers, widening sils with airscoops, replaced water filler tank... anyone know specific changes?
     
  10. carguyjohn350

    carguyjohn350 F1 Rookie
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  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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  12. Poolshark

    Poolshark Rookie

    May 2, 2006
    23
    It is A 512m replica, not a 1034 replica

    It is great that the 1034 engine is used again, to do what it is supposed to.

    I just hope that is technicaly sound... and if it is "priced right" at 800.000, I don't know
     
  13. carguyjohn350

    carguyjohn350 F1 Rookie
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  14. Poolshark

    Poolshark Rookie

    May 2, 2006
    23
    Believe it or not, but there is a hole in the roof, through which you can see the rear view mirror. As original
     
  15. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

    Sep 12, 2005
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    Andrew Turner
    Bob Houghton built 3 of these and I can assure you it is more than technically sound, the most exacting "toolmakers pattern" you would ever see. Every component made from scratch to the highest standards, right down to the nuts and bolts.
    One went to Albert Obrist, Bob kept one himself, (since sold to John Bosch and onwards again somewhere) and this one. The chassis is honestly stamped "R" for replica, with several other secret markings should anyone ever try to pass it of as genuine. Completely unfeasible to make such a project again. Technically because there are no more old bits lying around to form a basis, and of course economically. So I suppose it is priced right. Couldn't be done again for that money.
     
  16. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

    Aug 27, 2007
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    Stephan Hoekstra
    Any news yet?
     
  17. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
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    Spain and Germany
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    Manfred Lampe
    A few comments to what has been posted previously:
    On the thread: what happened to the 25 cars?: 5 cars are officially listed as 'destroyed'. That results in 20 'real' cars still in existence.
    On engine numbers: 512 engines were NOT always stamped with the serial number of the chassis. But all engines were identified with the engine / casting type followed by sequential 'Internal' numbers. Engine castings used were 256C, 261C and 263C, with 261C being the most common.
    On real or not real: The N°1034 Replica does NOT use the original ex N°1034 engine or an ex N°1034 gearbox.
    In its only appearance at Le Mans 1970, N°1034 had engine 261C-N°21 and gearbox N°4. The car was destroyed and scrapped, and not even the ID tag was ever sold by Ferrari (as per Ferrari).
    The engine in the '1034' replica is 261C-N°15, a correct 512 engine!
     
  18. Poolshark

    Poolshark Rookie

    May 2, 2006
    23
    any idea on how many blocks were made? what car used 261C-N15 originaly? what happend to 1010 original engine, the big canam that is in now is said have existed long before the first 512 was made...

    so many questions :)
     
  19. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
    41
    Spain and Germany
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    Manfred Lampe
    On how many blocks were made:
    261C: I would guess a minimum of 27, since the highest sequential number for a 261C engine is N°27 in my files.
    256C: I know of two engines for the 712 CanAm car N°1010: These are based on the old 612 engine blocks, enlarged to 7 liters. These engines are stamped 712 N°1 and 712 N°2. 712 N°2 is in car N°1010, while 712 N°1 is in a different car. The markings on engine 712 N°1 are 256 C N°4 - 712 N°1.
    257C is another casting type. I only know of one at present. Stamped 257 C. No sequential number, but also stamped 261.... Currently used as a spare for a 512 M Berlinetta.
    263C is (from what I know) the last of the castings for this engine type: Only one known of at present. This one is stamped 263C N°1.
    Tracking 512 engines is a bit difficult since some of these engines were sold by Ferrari as blocks only, and some as complete engines. But Ferrari did not always identify these with ID numbers in invoices and shipping documents. (I have copies).
     
  20. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

    Aug 27, 2007
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    Stephan Hoekstra
    Would that be: #1008, #1012, #1034, #1038 and #1046 (dismantled)?
     
  21. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
    41
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    Manfred Lampe
    The list of the 5 cars DESTROYED is DIFFERENT:
    The following is all based on period and current Ferrari documents, bills of sale, and documents from private teams:
    A) I have 2 different lists from G. Florini (GES-Ferrari), dating back to the early 70s. They list:
    1012-'GES distrutta al nurburgring'
    1026-'Swaters-distrutta' (severe accident during the filming of 'LeMans')
    1032-'Manfredini - 1° Vett. consegnata (Bruciata)'
    1034-'GES distrutta - Le Mans'
    1038-'GES distrutta - Le Mans'
    B) I have a 3rd revised Florini listing which also shows:
    1008-'Muller-Rodriguez-Distrutta'
    C) I have full documentation on the rebuild of 1026. This rebuild was done at a time when the cost of the rebuild far exceeded the value of the car. Not very original in some details, but (in my opinion) no longer 'destroyed'. Consequently the 5 destroyed cars are (in my opinion):1008,1012,1032,1034,1038.
    D) You had on your list 1046.
    This opens a bag of worms of previous misinformation: In 1980 it was concluded that this was the show car 'Modulo'. Most subsequent books and publications just simply copied the mistake. But, N°1046 is NOT the Modulo!
    Here is the history (in short) of N°1046 (again, all supported by Ferrari bills and documents, as well as Herbert Müller Racing documents and statements from ex Müller employees):
    512 ‘S’ Berlinetta N°1046 was sold by GES Ferrari for 1.200.000 Lire (Approx. US $ 1’960. - at the time) to Herbert Müller as a NEW chassis with body only (Invoice n. 3084/71 and Ferrari Rimesso n.23642 dated 26/10/71) . Early car without legal roll bar, no roof vent and with early ‘hidden’ door hinges. Initially used as an engine-less show car by Müller. Later assembled as a runner and offered to Pierre Bardinon as ‘NEW CAR', never raced. Sold by Müller in 1978 using the ID N° 1016 for tax and carnet reasons. After 1995 ID tag with n.1004 attached. N°1046 has no competition history, is very original (minus a few comfort and safety mods, and is the ONLY ‘S’ Berlinetta still in existence.
    E) The above requires a bit of explaining on N°1004 and 1024:
    The Ferrari 512 S with chassis N°1004 is an ex works car having competed at Daytona and Monza in 1970 as a 512 S Berlinetta. Ferrari never sold a car identified as N°1004. On June 20th 1970 Ferrari sold N°1004 car RE-NUMERED to N°1024 (without engine and gearbox) to Garage Francorchamps, Belgium. For the making of the movie ‘LeMans’ N°1024 alas 1004 became the donor for a Ferrari look-a-like Lola in the crash scene. For the final shoot the upper body structure and body panels had been mounted to the Lola chassis, which was crashed by remote control. What was left, was (at the time) of little use anymore. The frame was sold by McQueen together with 4 other cars to Herbert Müller Racing December 1970 for $30,000. According to the documents, Müller sold this chassis and a few parts in 1975 without chassis identification.
    F) To some this will bring up questions on N°1044. There have been speculations over a replacement of the N°1044 frame following the 1972 Nürburgring crash. Not correct: I have a signed statement from the ex Müller chief mechanic, that N°1044 was REPAIRED in 1972 and the frame of N°1044 was NEVER replaced.
    G) In November 2002 Ferrari confirmed that the car sold on June 1970 as N°1024 was 'apparently a mistake'.... The car identified as N°1024 was not the first N°1024 of 2 cars sold with this number. It was also not N°1012 as assumed in 1980. It was in reality N°1004.
     
    franmort likes this.
  22. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2006
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    Pieter Melissen
    very interesting.
    one question. If the Modulo is not 1046, what is it?
     
  23. fazzaz 512

    fazzaz 512 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2004
    41
    Spain and Germany
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    Manfred Lampe
    I don't have the answer to the question on what frame the Modulo was based on.
    Here are some 'Knowns' without any conclusions:
    The Modulo show car construction was started already in 1969 PRIOR to the Ferrari line-up of all 25 512S cars for FIA.
    It was first presented in March at the Geneva Show 1970, painted black.
    Fredi Valentini at Pininfarina let me crawl all over (and into) the Modulo in 1979. The car was already repainted to white and the chassis was without any doubt a previously used chassis. The ID plate had been removed from the frame, the old fitment of the small plate still visible.
    In 1969 there was a 512 S Berlinetta Prototype all executed in Aluminium. Serial N° (if any) unknown. I have some copyrighted pictures of this car with these aluminium body panels. But no date for the pics.
    Based on a discussion I had with Cigarla e Bertinetti in 1985, they recalled receiving a car fitting that description to take moulds for all the future fibreglass panels. Cigarla e Bertinetti in Turin became the supplier of all fibreglass body panels to Ferrari for the 512.
    I have no idea whatever happened to this car.
     
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  24. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2006
    304
    Holland
    Full Name:
    Pieter Melissen
    Thanks a lot, and indeed the 512S, of which I have seen pictures published in a general car book from the mid-eighties, would have been my next question. Don't know when those pics were taken, but they show a yellow car. Car must have a stamped engine too. Is it safe to conclude that at least 27 512 chassis were produced then?
     

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