What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

But both may be wrong.

 

True but one definitely is and in this case that is true as well and this is the point where IMO the experts will remain silent.

Did or did not Classiche issue a certificate in error?

"So Jean Pierre van Rossum bought s/n 1032 in 1989, being presented by Christie's as a genuine 512, and paid 1,3 million dollar. He than somehow found out that it was not a genuine 512. He sold it in 1999 on the Appelboom auction for 400.000 dollar. Marc Caveng, the new owner restores it (according to the above mentioned kidston article) and in 2006 the factory certifies the 512 with certificato di autenticita no. 249. The car is restamped to 1022. So now it is considered to be a genuine 512."

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/1032.512S.htm

 

Hello Florian
1) Not by the chassis no. as some cars ran in 1970 with the S and then in 1971 with the M. The first two photos show the 512S in coupe and spider form. The third photo is the M. Nose and tails are very different.
2) the coda lungas only ever ran at Le Mans 1970 - hence the comparitive lack of photos
Hope this helps
Nathan
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Could it not be beyond the realms of possibility that the car van Rossem was a replica of #1032, and the car Caveng ended up with is the actual #1022, and they are two different cars ??. I love Barchetta, great site, but not 100% accurate, I mean who is ??. Marcel am I totally wrong ?? If Caveng did buy #1050, what are the chances that this was the car Barchetta listed as #1032, and it isnt, play that spooky music while thinking about it.................. Its a doppleganger.
But Seriously I read it as this........
#1022 - Written Off
#1032 - Piper/ O'Rourke/ Walker/ Kroymans/ van Rossem/ Caveng
#1050 - Manfredini/ Sangusko/ GTC/ Caveng

So Caveng has 2 512's ?? #1050 & 1032 or just the one #1050
And maybe #1050 was the car certified by Ferrari Spa ??
Hey I am happy if I am wrong, would be great if someone cleared all of this up, Marcel maybe ??
Timmmmmmmy

 

pictures courtesey Wolfgang from this thread

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103845&highlight=hockenheim
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Thank you very much, Nathan! One last question, were the coda lungas just M or S with a different tail attached? Or completely different cars?

 

Hi Florian
Coda Lungas were S (only) with long tails on them. The M version didn't arrive until 1971 (With one exception - 1010 which was a factory entry at the end of 1970)
Nathan

 

512 M s/n 1010 made its beginnings in October 1970 at Osterreichring (Zeltweg) with Ickx-Giunti but was DNF, with the same crew, it won the Kyalami 9 hours in November 1970.

 

This is what i have on s/n 1010

Corrections are welcome!



1010


512S Spyder
Red

Scuderia Ferrari


Race history:


1970

Sebring 12 Hours #19 M. Andretti / A. Merzario dnf
Brands Hatch 1000 kms. #1 J. Ickx / J. Olliver 8th
Nürburgring 1000 kms. #57 I. Giunti / A. Merzario dnf
Watkins Glen 6 Hours #91 J. Ickx / P. Schetty 5th
Watkins Glen Can-Am #91 J. Ickx dnf

Converted to 512M Berlinetta

Österreichring 1000 kms. #31 J. Ickx / I. Giunti dnf
Kyalami 9 Hours #4 J. Ickx / I. Giunti 1st

Fitted with 712 engine

1971

Interserie [1] Imola #22 A. Merzario 1st

Converted to 712 Can-Am Spyder

Watkins Glen Can-Am #50 M. Andretti 4th

Sold to N.A.R.T.

1972

Watkins Glen Can-Am #40 M. Jarrier 10th
Road America Can-Am #40 M. Jarrier 4th

1974

Watkins Glen Can-Am #10 B. Redman dnf


Remarks:


1970

Serial number 1010 was the first 512 being converted to M – specifications.

Photo: Nürburgring 1000 kms. 1970 (don't know who holds the copyright, picture taken from the internet)


Kind regards,

Stephan
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Thanks again!

 

Brilliant photo! Look at Siffert shaking his fist. Love it!
Nathan

 

When the car was auctioned at Appelboom Belgium years ago. A guy bought it from J-P van Rossum, because that car had the correct engine and his car the correct chassis. So the two combined resulted in one correct car. Is that the car on kidston.com? The ex van Rossem car without engine got a new engine or parted out? Who can shine a light on it.

 

If the story on Kidston.com is correct and the car on those pics is the ex Van Rossem car (chassis) and Ferrari certified it.............did they certify the wrong chassis as original? or like I said the guy (Marc Caveng?) already had the original 1022/1032 chassis and only took the parts and probably correct engine from the Van Rossem car fitting it in his car(chassis).
Confusing.

 

According to Marcel massini, who i highly rate as a 512S and 512M expert, the car of Marc Caveng is the ex Van Rossem car:

(quoted from the Jim Clark Revival Friday PICS! +300 thread page 5 postnumber 87)

I'm not 100% sure though that the Caveng car is the car offered by Kidston. But the article states that the car, before reaching it's destination to the current European owner, traveled through Holland and Belgium. The ex Van Rossum car also travelled through Holland (Kroymans) to Belgium (Van Rossum). So, for me, that strongly suggests that the car Kidston is offering is the Marc Caveng (who lives in Europe) car.

I don't know if the complete story on the 1022 in the Kidston article is correct but the car is definitely certificated by the Ferrari factory. As was confirmed by Marcel Massini (forgot the exact location, so i can't quote him).

This doesn't automatically mean that the Ferrari factory certificated a car that isn't genuine though. Maybe the car was genuine all the time and Van Rossum had the real deal. Or if it was not, there was plenty of time to restorate it to the genuine 1022, Caveng has it for 8 years now. And could use 1050 as a reference.

You mentioned this story:
When the car was auctioned at Appelboom Belgium years ago. A guy bought it from J-P van Rossum, because that car had the correct engine and his car the correct chassis. So the two combined resulted in one correct car. Is that the car on kidston.com? The ex van Rossem car without engine got a new engine or parted out? Who can shine a light on it.

I don't know the story named by you, but i do know another story about s/n 1022, s/n 1032 and s/n 1050 which was on the Barchetta site for a while, but they changed it now:

In 1970 s/n 1032 was destroyed, the tub of s/n 1022 was used to replace the tub of 1032 and renumbered s/n 1032. At that point s/n 1022 does not exist anymore. When 1022/1032 was modified to "M" specifications, chassis 1050 was used as a new base for the 1022/1032 mechanical components. At that point s/n 1032 does not exist anymore.

There is a replica, built in England by Michael Cane in the late seventies through the early eighties. Even considering the fact that it was sold by Christie's in an auction and however they represented the car and much someone paid, it is a replica, which may use some correct parts (engine, transmission, etc.) Christie's claimed before the auction in May 1989, incorrectly, that the chassis from s/n 1048 was used as the base for this car (512F s/n 1048 is owned by Tom Hollfelder, USA and is a good car). Filipinetti also had spare body panels from the 512F that they had lying around. A new car was built from these panels. This new car was built in England by Michael Cane in the late seventies through the early eighties. It was built with a Porsche 917 windshield as well. It is even not a correct copy of a 512F which features a solid rear wing. Maybe other parts from 1022/1032 may have been used.

Maybe you refer to this article in a way that Marc Caveng owned s/n 1050, which was than believed to contain 1022/1032 mechanical components and bought the, which was than believed, 1032 Replica, which may use some correct parts (engine, transmission, etc). So he than had two cars, which contained all the 1022/1032 parts, so he could make one good car.

This story (or fairytail) is however not true: 1022 was certificated by the Ferrari factory with Certificate #249 on 28 June 2006, and according to Marcel Massini: 1050 was factory certified on 28 June 2006 with Certificate #248 F (post #71 of this thread). So both s/n 1022 and s/n 1050 were factory certified on the same day and are both considered genuine 512's by the Ferrari factory!

 

GUYS, relax please!

1) Marc Caveng owns two 512s, not just one.

2) Kidston SA currently offers one of the two cars owned by Caveng. Simon Kidston and Marc Caveng both live in Geneva, Switzerland, and are close friends.

3) Van Rossem had the REAL car (not a replica). This is also the very same car which later went to Marc Caveng.

4) BOTH cars are genuine and factory certified.

5) 1050 is NOT for sale and will remain with Marc Caveng.

6) 1032 died on 11 April 1970. CEASED TO EXIST. It was driven in practice for the 1st AC Verona Cup at Monza on race #2 by Corrado Manfredini, fastest lap, on the last lap the car was DESTROYED in a massive fire because the marshall’s fire extinguishers were empty, and because of this fact the Monza race track’s insurance company later had to pay for the damage to the car. I have photos and paperwork confirming all this. All remnants were returned to the factory. The engine, the gearbox and the chassis number badge “1032” were saved and kept for customs and administrative reasons. All other pieces of the massively burnt wreck were scrapped at the factory. At this point the original chassis tube “1032” ceased to exist.

Marcel Massini

 

What about the story of Appelboom, one (the buyer Marc Caveng?) had an engine and parts (the actual replica) and Van Rossem the chassis (which was the original)
Did one combine the two or not? If yes, then there is still a replica. Or this story is complety wrong.

 

Here is a pic of 1032 at Verona Cup at Monza in April 1970 :

[img=http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/160/700411monzaveronacup103pu2.th.jpg]

Copyright unknown.

Many thanks Marcel for your knowledge.

 

Hi Marcel
I'm trying to, but IIRC 1022/32 never raced as an F version? Only 1048 was an F?
Nathan

 

Nice photo, look at that mirror! Never saw it before, thanks for posting!

Stephan

 

Nathan
There were TWO Ferrari "512 F".
One was 1022, the other 1048.

1022 was converted into 512 F configuration by Ivo Iaticci and Mauro Sachetti of Casinalbo (near Modena) with new body built by Carrozzeria Fontanezzi, equipped with only ONE fuel tank on the right side (similar to chassis #1048). The conversion took place late April and early May 1971 (following the 1000 kms of Monza with Parkes-Bonnier on #8, DNF due to connecting rod problems, entered by Scuderia Filipinetti). On 17 May 1971 it was inspected and verified for the 24 h Le Mans by CSAI engineer and scrutineer Giovanni De Riu of Milan. It was entered for the June 12/13, 1971, Le Mans 24 hours to be driven on race #5 but due to the ongoing strikes in Italy and lack of technical support for three race cars chassis #1022 DNS and stayed at the Officina of Scuderia Filipinetti at Via Ghiselli 7 in Formigine.

5 December 1972 this car (1022) was sold to Piper. Then followed 8 (eight) more owners till May 1989. 2 May 1989 it was sold at Christie's Monaco to Van Rossem. He had Stefan Johansson race it at the New Race Festival in Zolder 13/14 May 1989, then J.J. Lehto at Zolder on 6 May 1990. 6 June 1999 it was sold at the Appelboom Auction in Antwerp to Marc Caveng. He still owns it today.

(PS: 1048 has NOTHING to do with this car).

Marcel Massini

 

Why did the person who bought it at Christies think it was a replica or did he or is he talking about a different car??

 

The buyer at Christie's 2 May 1989 was Jean-Pierre Van Rossem, the Moneytron financier of Belgium. I have no idea what he was thinking or not. He paid US$ 1'301'358 at the time for 1022, including buyer's premium.
Marcel Massini

 

This is what I'm referring to:


Last paragraph from the site I listed above, words by van Rossem, the Belgian stockmarket guru (Moneytron and the owner of the Onyx F1 team)


"Note on Christie's swindling with the 512S chassis 1022/1032
On May 5 1989, just before the start of the Monaco GP, where my both Onyx cars (for Stefan Johansson and Bertrand Gachot) had to prequalify, I bought at a public auction by Christie's the ex-Filipinetti Ferrari 512M for the sum of $ 1,301,358 US. The car came from Fritz Kroymans, the Dutch Ferrari importer. He gave Christie's all official paperwork proving that it was the original car witch chassis 1032. Altough the car was painted in the Filipinetti colours Filipinetti NEVER owned such car. The auction master, however, confirmed the potential buyers that the car was fully original.
In fact Kroymans bought the car from his country mate Ed Swart, well knowing that it was just a replica using some original parts. The truth was that in 1978 England's Michael Cane built the replica and that up from mid-1970 there was no longer a 512S with chassis 1022 or 1032. Kroymans could hide that information for Christie's. Although Christie's is responsible for the autenticity of the sold goods, it took until 1999 before they agreed that it was a false car - long enough to make that no more trial was possible - the case being barred by statues of limitation. How clever the swindlers! "


Best

 

Lot of "swindling" here!
Fact is that Michael Cane Limited mechanically completed the car (the owner at the time was Steve O'Rourke). It was NOT a replica. Ed Swart (Dutchman) lived in Rolling Hills/CA/USA and bought the car in November 1986 from Don Walker. In June 1987 Swart sold it to Theo B. Bean in Texas. It was Bean (and not Kroymans or Swart) that gave it to the Christie's auction. I have tons of paperwork for this car.
Marcel Massini

 

Thanks! As you know a lot of myth often swirls about.